Quote from Bandit77 :

-snip

Not a full response, but why shouldn't you be allowed to choose hybrids on a road track? After all, that's why they're called hybrids, surely?

It allows one to choose the balance of the car, putting hybrids on the back of an XFG makes it less understeery so it's not an exploit... it's just tuning?

But I don't understand what you mean by "exploit setups"... it's just taking advantage of a faster setting, which is open to be chosen by EVERYONE.

Quote from Zen321 :

Very true, I can't do anything but agree.

@kaynd, Keeping traction on all tires is not what every racing engineer is looking for.
As far as I remember, former rally/asphalt rally driver Jean Ragnotti driving for Renault at that time was extensively using a turn-in technique in which the inside rear was sometimes 10cms off the ground. This is what made him famous, and yet he was really fast (not only chav driving )

You have said that by yourself but I will help you understand what you are saying...

The rear inside tire was lifting because of the realy realy hard rear suspention comparing to the front. In this way he was redeusing the rear end traction / increasing the front traction. Thus having better turn in.
In LFS FWD setups you will see exactly the oposite...

Quote from Zen321 :

Actually since a couple of weeks I have found out something with the ARBs that they don't tell you about in the LFS setup guide or Bob's Smith VHPA (that is a very good tool by the way). But I won't tell it to you, setuper's secret

O yeah you think that you are the only one who have found this “secret”
The only reason no one refers to this officially is because this effect is not even remotely accurate comparing to real world physics… /me-> exaggerating here
(ok this is not so bad, it is just way to profound in LFS)

How about you share this secret ARB thing with the rest of us?

Have to agree... wth do You mean? Who's no one? Guys what are You talking about? :scared:

"not even remotely accurate comparing to real world physics…" WHAT DO YOU MEAN? :scared:

Go take all the WR's with your secret ARBS then.

I disagree with the OP to the extent that I don't think he has a clue what a driving simulator is, what nonsense.

Quote from Bawbag :

Go take all the WR's with your secret ARBS then.

Permission to laugh.

Good point kaynd about the FWD setups
I didn't take a look at them on the different setup download files, since I am more interested in RWD's, but I'll be sure to take a look see if my point is valid or not

About the ARB settings, did I mention anywhere I was the only one to know it, nor was it an uber-setting? I just mentionned that it was something about dynamics that is not explained neither in LFS manual or VHPA. And I'm not even sure it is the secret that you are speaking of (and which I would like to know ). So stop the aggro guys, let the steam off a bit !
@Bawbag, I will be honest with you, and I always said that. Skills are more important than the setup, and right now I don't have the skills to match a WR with my actual controller (a mere laptop touchpad... damn I should've taken my G25 with me before moving!). I don't remember anything I said that would refer to : I would kick every WR holders' ass, did I?
So stop taking the piss each time someone on this thread say something, it gets really annoying

There is no thing like secret adjustment that gives you “free” speed ffs…
It’s all about handling and mainly feel. And it is not a secret… It’s all about fiddling with the relation in stiffness between springs and anti roll bars (combined with the appropriate damping) in order to have the desirable responses from the car.
But anyway this is widely known… many racers even change the arb stiffness as the fuel load decreases and the weight distribution of the car changes… so go figure…


The hole effect is almost indescribable so I won't even bother to try and explain it because most likely I am going to mess it up.. :P It's just the reason you may feel that by adjusting some (single digit) NM in ARBS , even if this doesn't change the overall stifness distribution that much, it effects greatly the feel of the car or the willingness to turn-in or correct a line.

Ok guys, sry. I just want to clarify, this "effect" is ... well.. realistic in LFS or not?

It might be so noticeable because everything in the car from the suspension components to the car itself is rock solid, so if you reach a sweet spot on the total balance, even the slightest ARB stiffness change makes has a significant effect.

Great way to test it. High speed slaloms.
Try to keep a steady rhythm between direction changes and observe how fast the car reacts when it starts to steer and how fast it recovers before you steer to the other direction.

I hope this makes sense.

Oh I see, nah don't worry I wasn't referring to this Yeah I've heard about the 70% or 45% relation stuff, but what I found was in the topic of the effcet on the car's behavior. I found it to be a lot more complex than "stiffer rear/softer front --> more overteer" or its understeer counterpart, and this complexity is not even mentionned.

Maybe I am wrong, but so far, my testing goes in the direction that it is far more complex Though I need further empirical data to finish my setups

I am allso not referring to soft more traction and hard less traction stuff when talking about fine tuning the arbs

I have two cars that I race regularly, and like it or not, the setup means a lot, driver skill too obviously, but to say setups need to go is nonsense, it's a part of racing. Limiting the setups, maybe, but I can adjust just about every aspect of my cars, so if this sim is to be realistic, the setups should stay as they are, at least to an extent. IMO, my only issue is that, for example, the FXO, is it a stock car, or a heavily modified car that can be modified, if it's not, then you shouldn't be able to make so many adjustments to the car, it should be limited. Where a GTR, you should be able to adjust absolutely everything. Or am I missing something..

Quote from Forbin :

I haven't seen this "stiffer = more grip" thing in LFS since the early demo tests in late 2002.

Yes, some of the FWD cars in LFS typically use sets that are rather stiff at the front, at least for hotlapping and short races. This is allows them to lift the inside front wheel and, with a bit of throttle, use the outside front to pull the front of the car around, helping the car turn. A kart uses much the same principle in the rear. Note that this is very, VERY hard on the front tires.

In the FZR, the mass is carried very far to the rear and the tires are much wider in the rear than in the front. Thus, a fairly heavy oversteer bias is required in the suspension to counter the very heavy understeer bias in the mass distribution and tires.

In my years of making LX4, LX6, MRT, XRR, FZR, FOX, FO8, and BF1 sets, I've never found stiffening the front to result in increased oversteer, nor has stiffening the rear resulted in reduced oversteer.

I would agree with all of that.

However, I have heard from several "real world" club racers that on certain cars, and only up to a point, stiffer ARB's in front will decrease understeer or stiffer ARB's in the rear will decrease oversteer. They claim this is because the ARB's help to limit the camber change at the wheel due to suspension geometry. Therefore, stiffer bars increase overall grip up to a point. I don't know if this is true, but it holds a certain amount of sense because ARB's should help limit suspension deflection and therefore the inherent camber change couldn't get as high. But I don't know for sure if this is how things really work.

I also don't know if LFS models this or not, but I suspect that it does.

Now if you are already using uber stiff springs and ARB settings, then the suspension deflection is already limited and the camber change isn't much of an issue.

Quote from Hallen :

I would agree with all of that.

However, I have heard from several "real world" club racers that on certain cars, and only up to a point, stiffer ARB's in front will decrease understeer or stiffer ARB's in the rear will decrease oversteer. They claim this is because the ARB's help to limit the camber change at the wheel due to suspension geometry. Therefore, stiffer bars increase overall grip up to a point. I don't know if this is true, but it holds a certain amount of sense because ARB's should help limit suspension deflection and therefore the inherent camber change couldn't get as high. But I don't know for sure if this is how things really work.

I also don't know if LFS models this or not, but I suspect that it does.

Now if you are already using uber stiff springs and ARB settings, then the suspension deflection is already limited and the camber change isn't much of an issue.

Actually I have experienced this in LFS, particularly with the LX6. If the ARB's and springs were too soft in the rear, the rear rolled too much, reducing rear grip. I often found that trying to reduce the tendency of the inside front wheel to lift off the ground was a good thing. So yes, there are some special, extreme cases where the "stiffer front = more understeer" rule is not quite so hard and fast. It still holds true for the most part, though.

To soft rear arb will make rear behave like more pendulum I suppose. It will create bigger forces acting on the wheels for a moment. There is propably a "border" between too soft and soft arbs. Hell... I don't know anything about setups... but I think it MIGHT be true .

Quote from Forbin :

Low-cost racing is for the financially challenged. Since sim-racing is essentially free by comparison, restricted-setup sim-racing serves only one purpose: catering to the mentally challenged.

Well you've just shown you closed mind attitude to anything that dosent suit you. If you really think that then you could simply no go on to these 'mentally challanged' servers and stay on you more 'professional' servers. I just wanted a server for people who dont spend all their time playing this COMPUTER GAME, for people who just play for fun, and have a life in the real world.

That's the argument I hate. People thinking that people have no lives because they are fast on a computer game :-/
Either way, the fast guys will still be the fast guys, and the strugglers will still be strugglers.
Some people can make setups quite quickly, and they then only need fine tuning, which can sometimes take time, yes, but it's only really needed in GTR cars for enduro type races.

Quote from [DUcK] :

That's the argument I hate. People thinking that people have no lives because they are fast on a computer game :-/
Either way, the fast guys will still be the fast guys, and the strugglers will still be strugglers.
Some people can make setups quite quickly, and they then only need fine tuning, which can sometimes take time, yes, but it's only really needed in GTR cars for enduro type races.

I agree, anyone who for even a moment thinks this suggestion (or argument) is about attempting to make the gap between fast and slow smaller is gravely mistaken or misguided.

To my mind we shouldn't even be having this discussion. If the cars were not a physics code display mechanism, and if they had been based on real world equivalents from the outset, then adjustability would be set and nobody could argue that they should be able to adjust the spring rate by 0.000001, and the individual gear ratios by 0.000001 in an XFG which is actually based on a generic "one-make cup" car with lots of mechanical restrictions (for example).

Quote from [DUcK] :

Either way, the fast guys will still be the fast guys, and the strugglers will still be strugglers.

When I played alot (mainly S1 to early S2) I could consistently run within 1% of WR pace on many combos and much closer on some. Since I don't have a life anymore and can't play LFS as much I struggle to get better than 104% of WR pace so the amount of drive time you can get does effect you lap times, well at least for us mere mortals

I personally don't want to see too much restriction of setup ranges but perhaps on some of the lower classes (i.e. STD cars) the increments could be abit more course.

I have personally had cases were I've driven with a set thats not specific to a track but a fast set for another similar combo and been struggling with lap times, then get a set thrown my way and within 5 laps have knocked 2 sec off my lap time. So I can understand were some are coming from with wanting restrictions.

Having said that I'd really hate to see much in the way of forced across the board restrictions on any of the cars in LFS. I'd much perfer that servers could set a spec for the cars to run on that server, so that the setup restrictions could be varied between servers and only in force on that server with that server also having the ability to distribute a base set for the spec. Not every one would use this feature I know but server operators like CTRA could use it to great effect.

This would add to LFS were across the board restricition of setup adjustment on certain classes of cars would imo detract from LFS as the ability to tinker with setups is a good and important feature of a racing sim.

In my mind alot of these issues will not be so pronouced down the road when track surfaces and conditions become variable and the tyre physics have recieved there next installment of improvements.

Quote from Glenn67 :

I have personally had cases were I've driven with a set thats not specific to a track but a fast set for another similar combo and been struggling with lap times, then get a set thrown my way and within 5 laps have knocked 2 sec off my lap time. So I can understand were some are coming from with wanting restrictions.

That's fair enough, but I'm usually the opposite. I've got two or three sets for the one car, based off exactly the same set (susp rarely changes except for the rear roll bar by 10 clicks), only different cambers and gears. I believe if you have a set that's fast somewhere, there's no reason why it can't be fast elsewhere. I've done a whole Aussie League Championship with the one set (not even different gears) and still managed to win it.. So that's one of many arguments that setups don't make a massive difference.
Having said that, If your top 1 & 2 are very close, having that setup advantage is a small but clear advantage and it's a legal advantage. It's a mental advantage; knowing your setup is going to be better than your opponents on the last few laps or whatever.. Which is why I want to get rid of the 'ss' option online. I occasionally put a lot of time and effort into setups for the Aussie races I do, and sometimes they are just small changes which make all the difference, then I feel rude not giving the set out, so I do. Also it makes your opponent think "he only wins because of his setup" (if you don't send it over).

Quote from [DUcK] :

That's fair enough, but I'm usually the opposite. I've got two or three sets for the one car, based off exactly the same set (susp rarely changes except for the rear roll bar by 10 clicks), only different cambers and gears. I believe if you have a set that's fast somewhere, there's no reason why it can't be fast elsewhere.

I agree with your entire post and have similar experiences (on a lesser level obviously ) What you describe is one of the keys to the whole discussion imo. You have had enough track time, experience and support (from fellow races, teams etc) to derive base sets in which you are comfortable with on most any track car combo. I on the other hand aren't active enough to even remember which set is good and which is not let alone have several base sets I am comfortable with. So when I have a few spare hours in the once or twice a month I get the chance to fire up LFS I end up spending most of the time getting back in tune with LFS and finding a set I'm comfortable with - which usually requires taking an inferno set and making changes till it suites me.

The other primary argument is about realism which imo will not be able to be done properly until certain physics and environment improvements take place.

Hopefully in about a month I can have more time to get back into LFS again, at that point I might even attempt to create a base set setup pack for my self and post it for interested parties.

I have setup a server for only Race_s races. Please see this thread - http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=53803