Quote from mutt107 :

i would really pay a extra 20-30$ to have a stock car and a couple more oval tracks.. but

But most oval tracks are like.. the same. Play Nascar 2k3 or something. :o

Quote from Mogar :

I personally think that we would have an at least 70% drop on complainings about next patches if the "alpha" tag of LFS was removed.

People are complaining that they paid for S2 and it is still alpha, but as far as I remember, we have the following point:

What we pay is content (cars and tracks), and the stages (S1, S2, S3 and so on) are just about content (at least it was the original purpose, and it was clear on LFS website on the old days; today things looks a bit more mixed). Those who paid for S2 content have full access for it, and even got more content than anounced first (Formula BMW, and Scirocco when it's launched).

So, technically, we received (even more) what we paid for, and we can't complain for additional content.

The LFS core (physics, graphics, multiplayer systems and etc) is "free". Although nothing in real life is for free, and the licences pays for the core development also indirectly, the core part is what everyone have access without paying for, and is not directly linked with the stages.

The LFS core is on it's second stage of development, and the core is on an alpha stage. And to be fair, Scawen's standards for a final product is way higher than most software houses', because I personally think that, it may be called a finished product the way it is today although some features originally planned are not fully implemented.


So, although I still think that LFS needs improvements and new features, the arguments saying "we didn't get what we paid for" are not valid.

Very good post, +1.

And if Scawen's post in the arabic language thread doesn't shut the whiners up I don't know what will.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

But most oval tracks are like.. the same. Play Nascar 2k3 or something. :o

There are a few that are close to the same. Atlanta, LMS, Texas, California, and Chicagoland are all very similar. You also have Pocono, Bristol, Martinsville, Daytona, Richmond, Darlington, Rockingham, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Miami-Homestead, and many others that are very different.

Maybe you should take your own advice (and I use that term loosely) and try some NR2003 and see how different each oval is.

To say that "most" oval tracks are the same is just plain ignorant/troll-like (no offense intended). The only thing that is the same about all ovals is that there is no right hand turn required.

I did play Nascar2k3 for a while, I used to like the Nascar series till I stumbled upon a game called GPL at my local Co-op (in a huge cardboard box) for £2.99, so I bought that.

But seriously, I don't mean to generalise, but there are only so many variations you can have, I mean - You are going left or right pretty much ALL the time, if you see what I am saying.. I think the only tracks I liked were the ones where there was an infield section, but there were only like 2 or 3 tracks on whatever Nascar game I had..

GPL is a good game, I still jump on it from time to time.

Going right all the time doesnt make all the tracks the same. I get what your saying, though.

There are some ovals that you can run wide open the whole time, then there are some that you never quite make it to wide open.

The two you are talking about are probably the road courses, Watkins Glen and Sears Point. Did you not like Bristol? Or Martinsville? You dont know what your missing. :haha:

I understand your point, I just disagree.

At least someone gets it!

I may steal my friends Nascar and try that and compare it now, as I was like 7 or 8 or something when I used to play it back with my Logitech something or other piece of piss!

Quote from Mogar :

I personally think that we would have an at least 70% drop on complainings about next patches if the "alpha" tag of LFS was removed.

It wouldn't change anything, the main reason (there may be others, but let's stick to the big one) why people complain is the infrequent updates in content.

Also your textbook analysis of the business model does underestimate the power of expectations and emotions. Since content and 'core' development are intertwined and suffer from mutual locking in LFS, the sparseness of content updates overshadows the updates to the engine.

And since we are on this already: last physics update dates back to Dec 07, and as most think 0.6A will bring no innovation physics-wise, it means people aren't expecting to see something new before 4Q09.

(As usual, apply disclaimer: 'will be more than glad to be proven wrong')

Quote from Mogar :

the arguments saying "we didn't get what we paid for" are not valid.

That's certainly a moot point but emotions are seldomly expressed through logical reasonings

The LFS oval is kinda crap...

If the devs were to make a proper oval instead of that frankenstein kyoto then I would support more ovals. But, again, unless a proper oval comes out just play NR2003 (its still not going to stop me from driving it tho since its the only oval :razz

BTW to the OP if you think LFS can't look next-gen...please think again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... &feature=channel_page (BTW u have to watch the vid in high quality)

I personally dont like the bloom (or any next-gen graphics for that matter...hurts my eyes) BUT I do use it in LFS to show off to ppl who think that LFS cant look next gen

Its other drivers who make racing fun not patches or updates.
GPL will always be special to me, so many ways round a corner but smooth always worked out faster, LFS Ditto.

Quote :

Also your textbook analysis of the business model does underestimate the power of expectations and emotions.

I can't dissagree with you. I was just pointing what the developers state when you are buying the license, and that they are not going against what they offered to us when we bought the license. And also stating that technically the devs released to us what they have promised regarding the S2 content.

I know you don't know me. But I know a little of your work and greatly admire your knowledge, dedication, and generosity. That being said...

Quote from Bob Smith :

It's simply not the point of a racing simulator.

Car simulator. (check) Track simulator. (check) Driving simulator. (check) Racing simulator. (Eeerrr!) Wrong.

It's racing software. That is, if you are referring to LFS.

Which I will race on again as soon as I get a new mobo.

Quote from jrs_4500 :

I loved LFS, but compared to the other racing games out there, it's getting really old.

So are the players, at least the old timers like me.

From back in 2007:

Quote from ajp71 :

Is it just me or have SimBin just admited to the fact they've gone down the arcade route?

Quote from JeffR :

Simbin is right, the market for sim-oriented racing games on PC's is very small. PC gaming seems to have shrunk quite a bit. What use to fill up 2 or 3 rows at Best Buy (a USA chain store) now fits on 1 row. Price of GTR2 with GTLegends, $20 (USA), price of Race07, also $20 (USA). Price of Need for Speed PC games when first released, $35 to $40 (USA).

There's a good chance that gaming, PC or console, may lose it's popularity over the next few years since the newness of gaming is long gone. I'm wondering what will be out there by the time LFS S3 is finalized, which I'm still predicting to be sometime in 2009 (a date that seems closer to reality than it did when I first predicted this).

As far as most of the racing sims, the only arcade aspect seems to be the amount of assists available in particular games. My main complaint about ISI games is that the replays don't include any tire scrub sounds, and even in "full" mode, still seem to be missing something.

I think of LFS as unique type of game. It's not really competing with the other racing sims or racing games, although there is some overlap with the players. It still has up to 1000 players online at peak times, far more than other racing games as far as I know.

I'm suprised by the number of players still active online with LFS. As mentioned in my old post, having played computer games, including racing games (and simulations) since 1997, it's no longer the thrill it was and I don't spend that much time with any particular game any more. I read the same thing from the older sim web sites, like Team Redline, waiting for the "next new thing", playing it for a while when it shows up, and waiting again.

So maybe it's some of us "aging" as well as LFS.

Getting back on topic, the aging of LFS, I don't recall when I made my first 2009 for S3 release prediction, it was 2 to 3 years ago, but it now it seems optimistic instead of far fetched as it did when I first mentioned this.

In the mean time the only new thing is iRacing, but last I read, the active membership hovers around 6000, a tiny amount compared to sales of most racing games, getting a lot of press for such a tiny audience.

GTR Evolution fixed the tire scrub sound issue in ISI games. I've read good things about the power and glory mod for GTR 2.

The last rFactor patch was back in December 2007, so the only thing going on there are the mods and when there are a bazillion mods, going to a bazillion + 1 mods doesn't seem that interesting anymore. There are a few good mods for this game. I don't know if or when there will be an rFactor 2.

Codemasters, makers of the Toca Race Driver series (games not true sims) has released Grid (I don't know how well this did), and plans to make a Formula 1 game.

EA continues with the NFS series, but it's my opinion that interest in racing games in general peaked during 2006 and has declined since then. NFS Underground 2 and Most Wanted sold about 9 million copies. Carbon and ProStreet a bit over 5 million copies each. I don't know how sales of Undercover have gone. ProStreet and Undercover have made the cars too fast to seem like car racing games any more, but it's still fun. EA plans to release 3 different "NFS" games this year, leveraging off existing stuff. World Online will be Windows only and will use some combination of the streets and tracks from Most Wanted and Carbon. NFS Shift will be multi-platform, and apparently will use some combination of ProStreet and ISI stuff (some former GTR2 developers are involved). The 3rd one is some low end console game with the name NFS slapped on it.

I haven't heard much about any new console based racing games. I don't own a console so I don't follow those very much.

Getting back to LFS aging, it's like a long story, and the pace has seemed a bit slow this last year, and I'm wanting to see the next chapter, but I think we've known it was going to be slow with just 3 people working on it.

Quote from lizardfolk :

I personally dont like the bloom (or any next-gen graphics for that matter...hurts my eyes) BUT I do use it in LFS to show off to ppl who think that LFS cant look next gen

I totally agree. I tried demo of Race Driver: GRID and everything was blurry or too bright. I like the graphics of GTR2 - nice, detailed, sharp and with a little of DX9 effects. LFS hasn't DX9 effects, but still looks very good and if any stranger looks at screenshots, he says it has nice graphics.
And about fun - NFS can be fun, but just during single player, when you finish SP, you stay with arcade racing, which I don't consider as fun.
On the other side, LFS gives you all the cars and tracks from the first moment and you have to LEARN how to drive them and then learn how to make a good setup, etc. If you learn everything, you can race, race and race for many hours.
LFS now has just one minus - slow development, if only developers hire some programmers to help them with it...
But I am patient, because I know, that when it comes, it will be big

Grid is without doubt one of the most disapointing games I have had the misfortune to install on my hard drive. I'm sure it's fine on a console but the PC version is just horrible the handling, graphics, control interface, ffb is pants The women in the garage has a sexy voice that's all it has going for it.

I must say I like GTL, GTR2, GTR Evo and particularly like the Power and Glory mod. Rfactor I have on my HDD but not really given it a chance due to too many mods, add-ons and setting up ffb etc. Netkar Pro I have installed but not really tried it out too much yet. iRacing and LFS I play the most at the moment. I guess there are a lots of sims to choose from and each have there good and bad points.

Is LFS ageing a lot? No Am I aging a lot? Yes

Quote from jrs_4500 :

''NFS HP2 is finished, LFS is not.''


LFS is going a bit slower than NFS though. :P

''Did you ever think that maybe LFS being detailed and realistic is fun? That's pretty much why all of us play it.''

Maybe the cars handle more realistically, but that's the only thing it has going for it.

I dont think you realize how much different that separates LFS from NFS. Being how the cars handle, is pretty much the core of the game, as we are interacting with the cars :P. My brother read a review on racing games. GT5 Prologue got a 7/10 on physics, LFS got 8/10.

Quote from AlienT. :

Grid is without doubt one of the most disapointing games I have had the misfortune to install on my hard drive. I'm sure it's fine on a console but the PC version is just horrible the handling, graphics, control interface, ffb is pants The women in the garage has a sexy voice that's all it has going for it.

+1..

It isn't much better on console either IMO. I rented Grid for xbox360 one night after reading several glowing reviews about it. I played it for about 20 minutes (enough for 2 races) and couldn't stand to play it for 1 more second. I took it back to the rental store that same night...

back on topic

Quote from AlienT. :

Grid is without doubt one of the most disapointing games I have had the misfortune to install on my hard drive. I'm sure it's fine on a console but the PC version is just horrible the handling, graphics, control interface, ffb is pants The women in the garage has a sexy voice that's all it has going for it.

It's no better on the console version either I'm afraid!


As for DX9 in LFS a couple of posts above, why not do exactly what GTR and GTLegends had, as that was an option to choose between the two. After all, it's better for both the users who live in the 21st century and those using P2's and shared graphics cards.

Quote from JeffR :

It still has up to 1000 players online at peak times, far more than other racing games as far as I know.

Since you are including arcade racing games in the discussion, TrackMania as of now has >1500 players online and I think the peak should be substantially higher than that.

For a comparison, on LFS there are now about 600, but peaked earlier in the evening around 1400. The numbers are remarkable considering that TM offers much more content (1 car, infinite tracks) than LFS for free.

I don't know about iRacing since their stats appear to be only accessible by subscribers.

Quote from NightShift :

I don't know about iRacing since their stats appear to be only accessible by subscribers.

Really?

I find it ironic that you have to pay to see how many people are being ripped off.

Regardless of the quality of the physics in LFS, the rate of progress, especially the last year or so, seems relatively slow, especially if you consider the advancement of PC games in general since 2003 (S1 was released in July 2003), as opposed to just racing games.

One concern is the small target audience for sim-oriented racing games. The big companies, like EA, could make a good racing game simulator, but as noted by Simbin above, there isn't much of a market. iRacing's big expenditure on a sim-oriented racing game will probably be proof of the small target audience for sim-oriented racing games regardless of content. My guestimate was and still is that iRacing's business model will not survive for much more than 3 years, unless the founder is willing to plow money into a losing cause. They could try selling the game instead of renting it, but I don't think this would help and would only occur when the online aspect is virtually shut down.

My concern about the slow pace of LFS is that by the time S3 final is released (2010, 2011?), it will seem visually antiquated in comparason to other games, even if its physics is great, mostly because of the 3 person staff.

Think it's time for the Dev's to really think about commercializing. I know it's a terrible thing to think of, but maybe a nice office with a staff of a dozen of so people working on LFS a few hours a day and some retail sales(even tho the package isn't a complete one) would help progression for LFS. Everyone wants this game/sim to go places, it just needs more attention. I'm sure they have so much stuff on there plate as it is, and there probably busting there ass, but maybe some help would be good. Even if they keep it in the Community.

I'm sure there are plenty of programmers, 3d designers, visual effects professionals in the community that would be willing to take some load off the current Devs. For example, maybe they would like a new car class. Lets say a full blown Rally car. maybe a RB4-RR type of car. Ask for some portfolios, past experiences, references, etc... Conduct some interviews in the community and get someone else to do it. Could do the same thing with a track. Hell, it can be a community activity. Create a track which thousands of people contributed. I think it's worth a try, might make some decent publicity along the way.

You hit the nail on the head. the only problem with LFS is its slow development, its not that they should, but they NEED to hire more staff. At the moment all it takes is one of the programmers to be away for a month and nothing gets done... Thats not good.

When a game is not updated for a long time, people get tired of it. When people get tired of it they forget it. Then when the update does come out, there are much fewer people to purchace it. With faster development, not only will the community be happier, but the devs would have a higher income...

Quote from Monkay :

Think it's time for the Dev's to really think about commercializing. I know it's a terrible thing to think of, but maybe a nice office with a staff of a dozen of so people working on LFS a few hours a day and some retail sales(even tho the package isn't a complete one) would help progression for LFS. Everyone wants this game/sim to go places, it just needs more attention. I'm sure they have so much stuff on there plate as it is, and there probably busting there ass, but maybe some help would be good. Even if they keep it in the Community.

I'm sure there are plenty of programmers, 3d designers, visual effects professionals in the community that would be willing to take some load off the current Devs. For example, maybe they would like a new car class. Lets say a full blown Rally car. maybe a RB4-RR type of car. Ask for some portfolios, past experiences, references, etc... Conduct some interviews in the community and get someone else to do it. Could do the same thing with a track. Hell, it can be a community activity. Create a track which thousands of people contributed. I think it's worth a try, might make some decent publicity along the way.

Nice idea BUT... if there will be more people in LFS team, it will cost more, and it doesn't guarantee that more people will buy it, if they wont rise the price... well... Devs are not rich right now, so they will have to share the income to other people and i suppose that it will lower the income on one dev so much that they might have to get another job. Second, i suppose the devs simply like the way it is. Scawen, Eric and Victor are working on whatever they want and nobody is interrupting them. Working alone propably suits them, and inviting more people into their team might be risky.... imagine that quarrel will happen, and our newly formed team will disperse. I rather like our 3 men team if they are working on LFS without stress and aversion, than a bigger team but full of jealousy, lack of trust etc.

They wouldn't have to hire many more people, even 2 or more additional programmers would help quite a lot.

Synetic has (had?) only 8 people, and managed to release a series of racing games. I liked their Mercedes Benz World Racing and World Racing 2 games. Both of have a very large amount of content (cars, tracks, fully driveable 3d lanscapes).

Quote from BOSCHO :

the NFS crew is 23085340953734809758345 people.... the lfs is just 3 ..
lfs is in STAGE 2 of developement yea the graphics are not like race driver grid but i like them in some strange way if there was more people for developing lfs ...

3 developers and whole community who's job is to find the bugs that never be fixed