Quote from SamH :

except for a really stable and very usable test patch Z10.

I might be risking to get another infraction(but who cares!) but I really have to ask: Sam, did you hit your head? Because Z10 is anything but stable and reliable.

Quote from gigi91430ita :

What do you think?

I think you're crashing into the forum wall, i.e. people telling you are wrong when in fact you're right: more communication would be great if they did it correctly.

If you take a look at old posts, you'll notice the dev team was much more informative about what was going on, the quality and amount of communication has deteriorated, which is -I guess- another reason why some people insist saying LFS is dead.

Of course someone will tell you that was a consequence of people asking too much of the devs, but it's probably just because they didn't manage communication effectively in the first place:

To avoid backtracking (rally pack, MRT6, LX8, you name it), they just stopped talking, but as a matter of fact, backtracking still happens (e.g. Moving House), and it backfires a lot, too.

PS:

Quote from SamH :

It sometimes seems like people CHOOSE to be ignorant of the facts that Scawen has put into the community

Sam you're a nice guy but this is a prime example of provider mentality, i.e. you're swapping cause and effect.

Quote from SamH :

I don't see any benefit to bringing more information about development to the forum, tbh. Scawen recently tried to do it, despite his ........................

u stole my words its completly right what ur saying and i beat with everybody it anoys devs. that ur making those threads.

because u should be happy that the game exist and got realy instead of other games realy less bugs and theyre not a big company of developers so it takes mor time. I hope you understand that soon......

Quote from Thunderhead :

I might be risking to get another infraction(but who cares!) but I really have to ask: Sam, did you hit your head? Because Z10 is anything but stable and reliable.

Fair enough.. when I visit the test patch thread I see pages upon pages of raw, uncooked spam, and very little by way of genuine bug reports. Most of the bug reports that I have spotted in there tend to be isolated and unreproducable crashes. If I'm incorrect in that observation, fair enough. If Z10 isn't stable for some individuals, Z most definitely is. Nobody is left hanging with an unusable LFS install.

Quote from Mrwei :

It's hard to believe that a new car has so much bugs.....................

Why's that?

Quote from NightShift :

Sam you're a nice guy but this is a prime example of provider mentality, i.e. you're swapping cause and effect.

The cause is a combination of Scawen giving people what they asked for (communication/information), telling people what he planned to do on 19th December. The effect of that was all this unrest, because what Scawen (dearly, probably more than almost anything) wanted was to get a patch out so he could move house in peace.

I'm pretty damn sure that absolutely none of us in the community is as adversely affected by the delay of the new patch as Scawen, who's had to move house and settle in without ever getting the "break" he desperately needs from the pressure of coding the next LFS patch.

Even if Scawen didn't put a single line of code down during all of Christmas, right up until mid-February, I'm absolutely sure that it has NEVER been far from the front of his mind. And that's a pity, because you do need a break every now and again. I really feel for the guy.

What you have here is some kind of self-organized group which loves a game and the development. Therefor this group wants to know as much as possible on the deleopment of the game.
On the other side you have the devs who are busy developing and they draw a clear line between the community and themselves and the game. Now with web2.0 and people getting used to forums more and more and with a very very active and huge community here, it's clear that basically you would need another full time person to take care of the community, give them the informations needed etc. This person would take a huge load from the shoulders of especially Scawen and Eric and could get also the trust from the community by doing a lot of things.
All those things would open LFS up a bit, but on the other side actually would give the devs more room to dev, cause of those 20k+ followers is being taken care of.

But.... the status is something else, therefor: Happy Moaning and Whining!

They quit telling people things about updates and stuff because no one would quit bitching. you wanna bitch make your own damn game that's what I say. I have no problem waiting.

@ Sam, Scawen and all the others are just men like everybody else, they make mistakes, have emotions, a real life etc. - that's understood.

It doesn't change the fact the people may be dumping LFS not because it's a bad or outdated product but rather because communication is mismanaged.

The OP has a point; but if the solution requires a well-managed development blog, LFS is in a stalemate situation:

• If they get a pro to run it, LFS turns into something they don't want it to be.
  
• If they fetch some guy from this community, it would risk becoming a lightning rod a bit like the front man for nKp, call him Malaussene if you want
  

The situation calls for some creative thinking

I'd agree with Joe's summary in large part. I think one of the problems to be solved is "interaction", leading to "discussion". This leads to a perceived capacity for "negotiation", which doesn't exist.

The devs are active on the LFS forum, and this itself presents the illusion that the direction of LFS is an interactive process between the community and the developers, but it's not true. To fully exploit Web 2.0, the direct back/forth interaction that we've had with the devs would have to cease and be replaced by an intermediary, who realistically couldn't interact authoritatively so it would be better if he/she didn't interact but simply deliver (web 2.0 "push"). This would free up the devs but it might not satisfy the community.

Quote from NightShift :

The situation calls for some creative thinking

Yup.. OR.. as Joe says, just get used to the fact that some people develop LFS, some people play it and some people moan about how they would play it if they were allowed to play with the VWS, now.. Now.. NOW!!11oneone

Good post Sam.

We all know how Scawen works. As he fixes things and adds new things, his plans may change in an instant as he finds something else that is in dire need of attention, or finds something that is just not up to his standards. It is partially this type of development that has given us such a stable, usable, and exacting platform to play with.

I don't have any direct knowledge on any of this, but I am sure that all is well and things are progressing. In my opinion, I expect that everybody will be ecstatic with whatever it is that comes out in this next release.

Quote from Vykos69 :

What you have here is some kind of self-organized group which loves a game and the development. Therefor this group wants to know as much as possible on the deleopment of the game.
On the other side you have the devs who are busy developing and they draw a clear line between the community and themselves and the game. Now with web2.0 and people getting used to forums more and more and with a very very active and huge community here, it's clear that basically you would need another full time person to take care of the community, give them the informations needed etc. This person would take a huge load from the shoulders of especially Scawen and Eric and could get also the trust from the community by doing a lot of things.
All those things would open LFS up a bit, but on the other side actually would give the devs more room to dev, cause of those 20k+ followers is being taken care of.

But.... the status is something else, therefor: Happy Moaning and Whining!

Hmmm, is somebody offering their services in that regards??

Can't play with VWS? Go play with yourself!

You don't have to be a whinger to be negatively affected by this situation. Let's avoid that mistake of lumping everything together: there are ADD kids, trolls, etc, and there are people genuinely disappointed -- it's the latter we are interested into.

The OP didn't come here whinging, trolling or whatever. He just asked a question, voicing what I suppose is a legitimate concern: as such he doesn't deserve to be tarred with the same brush.

It seems to me quite clearly, that LFS community divides into three:

1)People, who moan to get VWS

2)People, who want moaners STFU

3)People, who want progress

Classify me into the second group.

Credits for the 3rd group to SniperX

Quote from Cherry :

It seems to me quite clearly, that LFS community divides into two:

1)People, who moan to get VWS

2)People, who want moaners STFU

Classify me into the second group.

I think there are one more group...

3) People, who want progress

When I payed for my S2 License back in 2003 I was pretty sure that S2 would be released at least in 2005..
Now, in 2009 I feel the progress has been very slow, and 2 months "off duty" while moving house and fixing the internet connection isn't making that feeling any better... (of course, being your own boss and having the possebillity to do so would have been great )

And before anyone says anything about no promises in the agreement - I know, I know..

Quote from SniperX :

... 3) People, who want progress ...

I add it to my list

I hope you don't mind.

Quote from Cherry :

It seems to me quite clearly, that LFS community divides into three:

1)People, who moan to get VWS

2)People, who want moaners STFU

3)People, who want progress

Classify me into the second group.

Credits for the 3rd group to SniperX

Group 2

Quote from rockclan :

Group 2

Same, but I want moaners to GTFO, too.

bringing new info and promises leaves more chances to upset and let people down...


if you rarely communicate its easier to be seen as a reliable source and thus you can hold this humble community together.

I Quote from Eric himself:

Quote :

It's getting really boring reading these complaints about why new LFS content isn't released at a rate which suits you. I'm not sure what these posters think they can accomplish, but they'd have to be complete idiots to not realise that they won't change a thing. It's madness to keep doing the same things over and over again and expect a different result everytime.

I really dont feel the need to justify the way or even the pace at which I work to anyone. The conditions I have to work in and the tools I have to work with affect only me, so I will deal with things my own way. I would say I'm sorry if you don't like it, but the truth is I'm not sorry. I am my own boss. I don't answer to anyone. Get over it.

If you don't like LFS or the speed of it's development....or even the fact that we are entitled to live a life outside of LFS, you have the free will to leave and play something else.

If you prefer to stick around and moan endlessly about things you can't change or encourage some kind of weird witch hunt against your least favourite Dev,......maybe you need to check your mental health or get a life. LFS can't help you with that, no matter how good it gets.

Amen.

Quote from Stiggie :

I Quote from Eric himself:



Amen.