Apology accepted. It was clearly a case of ignorance rather than malicious intent.
Apology accepted. It was clearly a case of ignorance rather than malicious intent.
Thanks.
And to add to that, the comedy value was awesome, GO GO GO! 
you say that like it's a bad thing!
Hamilton ftw y0!
I dont think he's once really suggested that the penalties his team received were wrong, if he has then he's since accepted it, admitted they made a mistake and left it at that. The reason he's p*ssed off is because as is disappointingly common there are frequent inconsistencies, some rules are ignored when it suits, while others get the book thrown at them. Now rather than them being addressed, their being ignored like the rules themselves.
So far, everyone seems more intent on ignoring the reason the thread has been brought up (twice, and the 2nd for understandable reasons IMO), it seems nobody wants to rock the boat and ask under what circumstances are rules no longer rules, if they dont apply then they shouldnt be there, if they do apply then they should be stuck to and someone somewhere should be ensuring that they're followed. If theres common sense and leniency being used, then it should be used equally and fairly.
Instead it seems to be more fun for most people to insult someone whos made valid points, and from my POV wants to see a level playing field where every rule is treated the same, with the same importance of being followed as the next. If you set a penalty for certain actions, then they should be carried out, and people shouldnt be so suprised if people ask for equal leniency for something similar or less damaging to the series integrety.
I dont see why this matter should just be dismissed as someone whining or being bitter about a result, i dont think Milan got off on the right foot to begin with with this round, but despite the fact that some people might just ignore it as what they perceive to be a backlash of the result, the lad has perfectly valid points. If people are okay with a series having rules that are enforced one round and not the next, ignore the threads and dont cry about it if you fall foul to it, but dont bash him for trying to highlight irregularities which should be address and something put in place to try and ensure this doesnt happen in future.
IMO, many of the non-essential penalties in MoE are excessive (largely because you refuse to penalise in a manner less than a DT, regardless of how trivial), its like the spirit of the league comes 2nd to being a stickler for rules, rules which dont enhance the racing one jot. Failing to run a race with the correct logos should come with a warning, a 6 race suspended penalty, so if they do the same thing in the next 6 races (a full, non-calendar season) then they've had the warning and should have made sure similar doesnt happen again. These people arent acting against the rules, they're humans making simple mistakes and the only people it seems to effect are the admins, they're the only ones who take offense to it. They've turned up in an official skin, albeit one intended for the previous round, and yet its blatently obvious the error was in loading the wrong skin, not in their lazyness or ignorance to the rules because a correct version was posted beforehand, and yet a needless rule in terms of honest racing values, is used to spoil the racing, and i would have thought that would be the main thing.
Im not saying dont penalise people, the above is just my view, they did 90% right, the missing 10% wasnt there by an unfortunate mistake, and the league should be bending over backwards to try and accomodate honest mistakes, with the same level of understanding as when a blind eye is turned for other less-significant rules.
Its about doing things that are right for the series, its competitors, and keeping the racing fun, theres enough things to get stressed with before & during these big events, throwing in a penalty for something trivial wont help matters, and i dunno about others, but i'd sooner get a result on merit than simply at the expense of something 'petty' (not saying i wouldnt accept it, but i'd sooner finish 2nd honestly than 1st by a silly penalty which runs no risk of ruining things for anyone).
I know its not easy making rules, and sticking to them when sometimes you look at the circumstances and there doesnt seem to be any harm in enforcing it if it doesnt do any harm, but there needs to be some sort of consistency, thats whats being ask of the organisation team, not miracles which will see them load the correct skin and win the GT2 race, just consistency with decisions and when descrepencies should be made and when they shouldnt. You dont have to overturn decisions, just understand his POV and see if there are ways to help ensure similar incidents dont happen. As ive said, everyone takes part in MoE for the racing, thats how everyone wants to see the results being decided, fair n square, not based on something which isnt consistant and has no effect on results until its penalised.
Its not a 'Lets all hate on MoE' thread/post its a 'there are inconsistancies, they should be addressed' thread/post, both this post and IMO Milan's posts are said with the interest of fairer, more consistant, and more fitting of the damage they inflict on the series/season/race/other drivers etc. Hopefully this time they'll be treated that way, instead of being ignored, locked, and left with an message which contradicts exactly whats just happend
(ie suggesting if someone starts an non-constructive thread, it'll be treated differently!? huh, what?). If things are ignored, it only makes the series WEAKER, pretending there arent issues doesnt make them go away, it just leaves holes to ruin races for others in the future, and LFS has a nasty habbit of ruining peoples races without it being anyones fault, lets not add to that.Also, can i add, can people only reply if they have something relevent to the matter being discussed (unless its an entirely different 'protest'), we dont need more 'stop moaning, its over' comments, they've all been extremely helpful, instead it'd be more constructive to offer your POV on the issue, not the circumstances in which we got here.
Just a FYI: The fact that Milan's threads have been removed has to do with the way how they were addressed, and does not mean that the valid points brought up by him aren't taken up for further improvement if deemed necessary.
But those points are PUBLICLY ignored.
It doesnt matter if you spend every waking moment talking about it privately, if publicly your not acknowledging the points and at least making the statement that your taking the critisism seriously and it'll be looked at to ensure that the suitable measures in place are there to ensure everything was done properly and fairly etc. You dont have to agree something is a mess, or say they're wrong, just acknowledge their opinion and make sure what they're saying isnt true.
If you dont acknowledge it, it looks like you dont care or arent interested in checking, and their views are being ignored, and because it gets ignored and locked they feel the need to take the discussion to somewhere you cant interupt it, till someone moves it somewhere you can anyway.
Ive never understood some of the actions of MoE, and your left with the impression that if you have a criticism, and dont have all the answers, then STFU cos your not helping by highlighting issues, sweep them under the carpet. Too often an 'Us v Them' mentality seems to be used, and it seems to be forgotten that if these people didnt care, they wouldnt make the posts they'd just stop turning up.
I believe Appie did state that we're taking it seriously just now.
There are certainly areas in the rulebook that need to be tightened up, and we have been taking note of them for next season. If a concern is so great as to require a mid-season change we will make it, but in general we try to avoid changing rules that lead to penalties mid-season so that we can avoid one team saying "we got penalized for this, so why didn't they?". Things like driver naming (which people STILL inexplicably don't get) we have been letting slide except in especially egregious cases because we let it slide in the first few races, which was a blatant mistake on our parts.
However, we feel these minor infractions are minor concerns for the time being, and don't deserve the over-impassioned grandstanding Milan gave them here and in the General LFS forum. We're glad to take criticism, if it's delivered politely and in a way that doesn't demean the league in public. I don't think that's unreasonable to ask.
There are certainly areas in the rulebook that need to be tightened up, and we have been taking note of them for next season. If a concern is so great as to require a mid-season change we will make it, but in general we try to avoid changing rules that lead to penalties mid-season so that we can avoid one team saying "we got penalized for this, so why didn't they?". Things like driver naming (which people STILL inexplicably don't get) we have been letting slide except in especially egregious cases because we let it slide in the first few races, which was a blatant mistake on our parts.
However, we feel these minor infractions are minor concerns for the time being, and don't deserve the over-impassioned grandstanding Milan gave them here and in the General LFS forum. We're glad to take criticism, if it's delivered politely and in a way that doesn't demean the league in public. I don't think that's unreasonable to ask.
yeah, i understand he's saying its being looked into, but it should have been done in the 'this threads being locked/deleted' posts, ie when the issue is being brought to your attention. If there isnt any sign of understanding or effort to listen to concerns, then its understandable the posts will continue until that impression is given.
A lot of steam can be taken out of complaints/criticism by just acknowledging it so the person knows they're being listened to, not just fobbed off because that doesnt help calm the situation.
I also hope you'll take some consideration to the 'suspended penalty' suggestion for minor skin irregularities, a similar approach has been used this season where incidents have cropped up but really werent worth slapping a penalty on. IMO thats definately a step in the right direction, and worth looking at for some minor rule breaking where the rule being broke doesnt have a serious impact, maybe use 2 same rule-breaks in a 12 month period = penalty, or 3 different minor's = same effect.
As i say, LFS has a nasty habit of screwing up decent races, rules should be there to make racing fairer and cleaner, ideally having no impact on the race unless theres no choice, and the minor penalties being equal to cases of bad driving just doesnt feel honest and justifiable.
A lot of steam can be taken out of complaints/criticism by just acknowledging it so the person knows they're being listened to, not just fobbed off because that doesnt help calm the situation.
I also hope you'll take some consideration to the 'suspended penalty' suggestion for minor skin irregularities, a similar approach has been used this season where incidents have cropped up but really werent worth slapping a penalty on. IMO thats definately a step in the right direction, and worth looking at for some minor rule breaking where the rule being broke doesnt have a serious impact, maybe use 2 same rule-breaks in a 12 month period = penalty, or 3 different minor's = same effect.
As i say, LFS has a nasty habit of screwing up decent races, rules should be there to make racing fairer and cleaner, ideally having no impact on the race unless theres no choice, and the minor penalties being equal to cases of bad driving just doesnt feel honest and justifiable.
I'd love to not penalize stuff like the skin rules (contrary to some people's belief, we do not enjoy handing out penalties), but the fact is that they've been penalized previously this season (whereas the naming issues, aside from egregious ones like "TeamName|Nickname", have not). I agree that it's inconsistent and that ideally these inconsistencies wouldn't exist, but we're trying to be as consistent as we can within the boundaries we've got, i.e., if it's been penalized once it must be penalized every time--if it's not been penalized once it should never be penalized. Rule of custom, I guess you'd call it.
Thanks for the considered and helpful suggestions here. We really do appreciate it.
yeah, it was intended as a suggestion for Season 5, to be considered over the summer.
It makes sense to try and enforce rules the same way from start to finish whenever reasonably possible, thats understandable and wouldnt be fair otherwise. I just hate it when you see things in a different light to when you decided upon a rule, im seeing that already in LFSPS.
It makes sense to try and enforce rules the same way from start to finish whenever reasonably possible, thats understandable and wouldnt be fair otherwise. I just hate it when you see things in a different light to when you decided upon a rule, im seeing that already in LFSPS.
Yes, it's a very unpleasant feeling.
in next season, will you consider handing out bigger penalties then a DT for incidents where the caused harm cost much more time than the DT itself?
We already have the ability to hand out penalties more severe than a DT. When deciding which penalty to hand out we look at several aspects (including time loss and damage sustained) and apply a penalty which we think is fair. Generally the penalty will be a DT or SG penalty (or 30/45 seconds if the protest is received in the last hour of the race) but we have the power to impose an additional 1-5 laps for incidents of gross negligence (e.g. rejoining the racing line without checking for traffic). If you look through the Penalties threads for past races you'll see that we have handed out penalties more severe than DTs already.
Moreover, you should realize that a penalty is not supposed to be a balancing act. If you lose 52.89 seconds in an incident, we don't hold the offending team for 52.89 seconds. The penalty for all accidents of a similar type is the same. More severe incidents (read: intentional or, as amp said, grossly negligent) may receive more severe penalties. But, for instance, all "avoidable contact" penalties will likely be the same, even if the time lost/damage incurred is different.
We've investigated this incident and decided the contact was due to a racing incident. #40 outbrakes himself into turn 3, runs wide and gets sideways on the kerb. To protect his position he moves right before turn 4 but then moves back to the left to get a better entry for turn 4. Due to this move back to the left #35 is forced to brake and makes slight contact. No penalties will be applied for this incident.
I see, saw the difference in our opinion in the fairness of the penalty is due to the different point of views. I think the penalty should indeed be a kind of balancing act and should try to set back the offending team in a similar fashion as the team they had the incident with. The penalty is supposed to give something back to the team that was `harmed`. It does do that in some cases, it did not in our case however.
I understand it is extra work and you are obviously not planning to change this, but I still think it is unfair as it is right now.
edit: amp says you do consider time loss when reviewing incidents, yet, you still issued a DT only in our case, even though the time loss was more significant. Had we lost no time, what would have been the penalty issued?
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by DeadWolfBones
(amp88)
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by DeadWolfBones
First of all you've seem to got mixed some numbers. You mention #35 as both cars as I understand what you wrote.
If we don't take it into account, and apply correct numbers of cars, you basically want to say that "due to this move", our move, we are the ones guilty for the incident...
What is slight contact? A bump from behind that doesn't affect your line, i.e. it usually occurs on the straight while drafting. I would not call this in 6h BL race a "slight contact" because it forced us to save our car from spinning causing us to go off track, allowing car #35 to pass.
Hilarious!
I made a mistake in the numbers when I created the first post but I quickly edited it when it was pointed out as a mistake. I apologise for any confusion that caused. There were over 20 minutes from the time I edited the post to the time of your post.
My reply window was open, wrote post before you edited it, sent it after.
Penalizing another team cannot give you your lost time back. The penalty is punishment for a violation of the rules, not an attempt to equalize two teams involved in an incident. It's like this in virtually every racing series in existence, as far as I know. I understand that sometimes the penalized team doesn't lose as much time as the harmed team, but they do lose time. Sometimes they even lose more time. The idea is that because they've lost time they won't engage in the kind of behavior that led to the penalty again. There's no way to restore the situation to what it was before the incident, so the best we can hope for is to discourage the incident from re-occurring.
Essentially you want the punishment to be punitive, while we want it to be prescriptive.
edit: this is my interpretation of course.
If you dished out penalties which reflected the damage done, it still makes little difference when its a GT1/GT2 cross-class incident, penalising them an hour you wont benefit from it.
Likewise, time alone is irrelevent, if your on say lap 5 and mid-pack, and your spun losing 10 seconds, you lose around 10 places. Penalising someone 10sec in 2hrs time when you've finally got an MPR to make the protest, and the pack is spread out and 10sec means nothing anymore.
You cant justify different penalties for identical incidents, purely because the circumstances beyond the incident are different. If someone spins you due to an avoidable mistake, that should be a fixed penalty, and to my knowledged thats always been the case.
I think sometimes people forget that sometimes these incidents happen in real life racing, and nothing happens. They're called crashes, and in most cases the race goes on if possible. Its not often you get cars sent for a SG or DT, yet when you consider the number of incidents you see its a low percentage which get penalised in most series.
Likewise, time alone is irrelevent, if your on say lap 5 and mid-pack, and your spun losing 10 seconds, you lose around 10 places. Penalising someone 10sec in 2hrs time when you've finally got an MPR to make the protest, and the pack is spread out and 10sec means nothing anymore.
You cant justify different penalties for identical incidents, purely because the circumstances beyond the incident are different. If someone spins you due to an avoidable mistake, that should be a fixed penalty, and to my knowledged thats always been the case.
I think sometimes people forget that sometimes these incidents happen in real life racing, and nothing happens. They're called crashes, and in most cases the race goes on if possible. Its not often you get cars sent for a SG or DT, yet when you consider the number of incidents you see its a low percentage which get penalised in most series.
This is an important point, yes, and I think the reason LFS leagues use DTs and SGs so much more aggressively is because of the destructive potential inherent in LFS's collision model and netcode. You have to drive with those elements in mind, and realize that a scrape that in the real world would result in nothing more than some traded paint can have catastrophic consequences in LFS.
I agree with this. It´s almost impossible to have an objective measure of the real time lost because of an incident. It depends a lot on the circunstances of where, how and when it happened. For example this race, we had an incident right at the beginning of the race, that in pratice made us start the race 1 lap behind every team, and with all GT2 cars in front of us that we had to overtake to regain places. How can anyone evaluate what was the real time lost with this incident?? Was it 1 lap, 2 laps?? I don´t really know... The team that caused the incident got a DT penalty which is the usual penalty in these circunstances. Incidents and mistakes from the drivers are part of racing, and I think that we have to live with it. Sometimes it happens to you and ruins your race, sometimes it happens to others and you gain places because of it.
6 Hours of Blackwood GP: Protests
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