I have been playing various racing sims (mostly GTR Evo and more recently LFS) for a few years now and I almost always learn a track/car with the default setup except for gear and steering ratios. However, inspite of trying many different setup changes and many different downloaded setups (and working them to death) I've honestly never once found a single change which has improved a lap time by even a fraction of a second (apart from with the afore mentioned ratios). I was wondering if anybody else has found this to be the case? I have been told that changes are most prominant in the likes of F1 and F3000's and I only really use the touring and GT cars but even so... Furthermore, tyre temps seem to be quite an issue with a lot of drivers but I don't honestly feel any difference whether the tyres are cold, hot or at the recommended optimum temperature.
I should mention that I wouldn't expect a setup change to make much of a difference within a lap or two, so I have given said setup changes a fair run before reverting back to defaults. I also make sure that I am completely familiar with the track before making any adjustments or trying somebody elses setup.

lfs is real driving and setups make the cars not behave like crap, plus, you can have fun too... xfg rollover..

Setup changes will make the most noticable difference when you are able to consistently be within 103% of WR pace.

For me I regularly find the difference between two good setups can be 200 hundreds of a secend upto half a sec a lap. When I do the same comparison between a default set and good set it can be well over a second a lap.
For those that average arround 107% of WR pace I'd suspect that they would struggle to see any significant difference between sets - I'm not saying that's you.

Also setups can be quite interesting, you can take the same car/track combo and have two different setups from drivers that are within 101% of WR pace and find them very different to drive often requiring different driving styles to get the most out of a set.

Tyre temps wont make much difference when your safely within a tyres grip envolope, you will notice the difference in tyre temps once you can drive much closer to the edge of that envolope consistently. That ability is the difference between you, me and a multiple WR holder.

Quote from FiveMagics :

I have been playing various racing sims (mostly GTR Evo and more recently LFS) for a few years now and I almost always learn a track/car with the default setup except for gear and steering ratios. However, inspite of trying many different setup changes and many different downloaded setups (and working them to death) I've honestly never once found a single change which has improved a lap time by even a fraction of a second (apart from with the afore mentioned ratios). I was wondering if anybody else has found this to be the case? I have been told that changes are most prominant in the likes of F1 and F3000's and I only really use the touring and GT cars but even so... Furthermore, tyre temps seem to be quite an issue with a lot of drivers but I don't honestly feel any difference whether the tyres are cold, hot or at the recommended optimum temperature.
I should mention that I wouldn't expect a setup change to make much of a difference within a lap or two, so I have given said setup changes a fair run before reverting back to defaults. I also make sure that I am completely familiar with the track before making any adjustments or trying somebody elses setup.

Maybe you've gotten so used to the default setup that you aren't pushing it enough?

Setups do work. To make the most out of a setup the driver has to continuosly try the limits to find out where changing setting x makes the car better, where worse. With the default setups, your braking points and even your racing line will be a bit different (and slower) to what you could use when running with a specialized setup.

It sounds like you're not pushing it hard enough. Differences in setups only become noticeable when you're driving the car close to the limit. And they really do make a difference. Although I can't really speak for the GTR cars as I rarely drive them. I suppose it's possible that setup changes in the GTR's are less noticeable because of the nature of those cars. In some cars it really can make a world of difference.

You also have to remember that a setup change won't necessarily make the car faster, but it should make it "easier" to drive for you (generally you'll want to change the car's behaviour to suit your driving style), making you feel more comfortable with the car, allowing you to push it harder, resulting in possibly better laptimes over time.

It's been said many times that a truly fast driver will be able to do approximately the same laptimes in a given car, no matter what the setup (as long as it's a reasonable setup, of course, ie. no rally setup on a race track or stuff like that).

I think set-ups have a varying importance in different cars.

For example, when CTRA was around I'd only ever race XFG. I've done over 10,000 miles solely in that car playing on that server. I only ever used 1 setup, but that took me about 4 months of on/off development and minor tweaking to perfect.

The one setup I did use, I used everywhere. Both on S1 and on S2 tracks. I won with it on every track I raced on (at least once! :razz

Now I've emigrated to RSR/NDR TBO servers, and I made a setup in the similar vain as the XFG. However it didn't really work. Sure, it works on certain tracks, one's that share simular characteristics, such as WE and some of Aston tracks, however the majority of tracks, (normally slower ones, or those with a few odd sections with odd camber or something like that) I find myself having to either find a setup specific for that track, or I either find myself being seconds slower than the front runners on certain sections, or frying my tyres in order to keep up. I try to use as few setups as possible as I prefer to drive by the feel of the car. Perhaps I just don't know the XRT well enough as I've only been racing it for a few months, as opposed to a few years!

I think that the faster the car, the more important the setup is. IMO.

Quote from FiveMagics :

[snip
Furthermore, tyre temps seem to be quite an issue with a lot of drivers but I don't honestly feel any difference whether the tyres are cold, hot or at the recommended optimum temperature.
[snip]

You can't be serious?

If my temps go above the red (> 130 degrees) I can't hold a line through a corner like at normal temps, the tyres just turn to slush and I'm spinning out on every corner.

Even if they go slightly above warm, then I notice the car is unstable and slippy.

You have something really wrong if you can't tell the difference in handling between the tyre temps?

You have to be pushing the car to its limits to feel either setup changes or tyre temps impact on your cornering ability

Quote from JasonJ :

You have something really wrong if you can't tell the difference in handling between the tyre temps?

It would make perfect sense if he isn't pushing the car hard enough, like many people have said You can still "cruise" around on cooked tyres

Thanks for the replies folks. You would be right in assuming that I'm not using the car to it's (near) full potential in LFS, ie. I'm not yet good enough. But I have the same issue in GTR Evolution. I'm no alien by any means (in GTR evo) but I can hold my own... Sorry, there was/is one exception. The default setup on the Aston Martin (can't remember which one) had the arbs biased towards the front, but when I reversed it I found quite a big difference in lap times. Thus suggesting I had a problem with understeer. Unfortunately this was an isolated incident and hasn't as yet worked with any other cars.
I have experienced a phenomenon which I suspect has been experienced by a lot of racers - When working a car with the intention of adjusting the setup I find a setup which I think has helped. But when I revert back to the default setup I find that I can make the same lap time. The reason being that the improvement was a result of practicing, not the setup. If anybody can understand my poor explanation, has anybody else had the same experience?
Also, please understand that I'm not suggesting setups are nonsense, I'm just reporting on my own situation and wanted to know if I was alone. Please, for the love of god tell me I'm not an odd-ball .

Quote from FiveMagics :

Also, please understand that I'm not suggesting setups are nonsense, I'm just reporting on my own situation and wanted to know if I was alone. Please, for the love of god tell me I'm not an odd-ball .

Your very normal and it is best to get one good all round setup and use it until your ability improves to 103 - 105% of WR before toying with setups much at all as you have rightly deduced

A great majority of people in LFS take sets from sites like setupgride or inferno and just tweak brakes for there preference most of the time. Although building sets can be very rewarding if you have the inclination and time.

If I may, I'd like to ask if someone could explain the situation with Anti-roll bars(even though tweaking them seemed to help me once with an Aston Martin in GTR evo).
To quote the basic setup guide in the LFS manual:-

-"If you have a stiff anti-roll bar setting it will increase stability but you will instead lose some of the traction available."

So what does 'stable' mean if it's not 'sticking to the track'? Thanks

these may help
http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Basic_Setup_Guide
http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Advanced_Setup_Guide

also try do a load of laps around Aston grand prix you lose tyre temp and at least one tyre will go cold and then it very hard to steer.

Quote from FiveMagics :

So what does 'stable' mean if it's not 'sticking to the track'? Thanks

I think in this case stable would mean the car rolls less during cornering. Stiffer anti roll bar -> less roll. Using stiffer ARB causes tyre loads between left & right to change more rapidly and generally loads the outer side tyre more, sometimes too much. In this case, if the inner tyre would carry more of the load, the overall grip would be better.

Quote from typhirion :

these may help
http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Basic_Setup_Guide
http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Advanced_Setup_Guide

also try do a load of laps around Aston grand prix you lose tyre temp and at least one tyre will go cold and then it very hard to steer.

Saviour!

One thing that has always put me off playing with setups is that I haven't got the faintest idea how my changes will affect the car.
Those links are very useful, thanks.

Try also VHPA: http://www.vehicle-analyser.com/ , a little complicated but when You learn it, it's a great program!

Btw. Bob how's the update?

Quote from JWRPayne :

Saviour!

One thing that has always put me off playing with setups is that I haven't got the faintest idea how my changes will affect the car.
Those links are very useful, thanks.

no probs

I must say it takes time to set up a car for a certain track ( just like in real life, oh wait its asim so it should be. but you dont have to get on the floor unscew stuff or get dirty. lol)

I took notice of a post that scott andrews made a while back that he claimed he had a few good sets per car and that there is not reason why a car that is fast on one track with a setup couldn't be fast at another track with a few tweaks.

Over the weekend I returned to the car and track I started LFS with, Blackwood w/XFG. I had a set I had been comfortable with in the summer of 08 when I had set my PB on that combo or close to around that time. The set I started with had symmetrical camber and tyre pressure or very close to symmetrical. I drove that set over and over and took notice of the flaws that popped right out me. But, I didn't jump in a start changing settings. Instead I thought about how I could approach the changes as I was driving giving me 10 or 20 laps at a time to think and debate my recent thoughts. This also allowed me to adapt to the car. One because I was simply driving and not over thinking the track. Two because I allowed the car the chance to tell me what I needed to do to encourage a more efficient technique. It almost as if I was just there doing it, but not really there. Sometimes it even seems like observing once you are in the zone.

What I really did was dial myself in first, then I dialed the setup in very small steps giving me the choice to back out of that change if after giving it a chance I felt it didn't suit my goal. Most the time it is my fault I'm going slow and not the cars. I'm sure this is true for most. It is all too easy to give up on yourself and start tuning the car with hopes of faster laps times, rather then learning to deal with the setup you have.

My end result was a putting the XFG on BL1 into the high 1:33s from the low 1:34s with very small setup changes. Not a huge jump, though before I would bounce all over the 1:34s and sometimes into the 1:35s. Now I hit mid to low 1:34s very frequently. After I hit a 1:33 in the XFG I jumped in my old XRG set and did the same thing and had the same results. It came much faster the 2nd time with the XRG though. The setups are able to run longer 20 30 lap races with ok lap times I expect. They are not hot lap sets. I don't do hotlapping really and prefer to run at least 10 laps at per go at the track.

-Jay

Quote from jbirdaspec :

I took notice of a post that scott andrews made a while back that he claimed he had a few good sets per car and that there is not reason why a car that is fast on one track with a setup couldn't be fast at another track with a few tweaks.

Hi!

Well yeah, that should be true - most of the time. In pick up racing and hotlapping etc that's most certianly true. If you're doing enduro races with GTR cars, then sets are very important, not for speed, but for a mix of speed and tyre life. It's a difficult balance to find, one that takes time and fine tuning.

In saying that though, it's pretty easy to just grab any set you want on lfs and be reasonably fast with it. The only time you need to drasticaly change a set is when there's corners on the track that are not suitable for a normal set, for example Fern Bay with its massive kerbs. You'll usually see setups for there, with soft springs and high ride height, so it can run over kerbs more than possible with a regular setup. They handle like boats, but sometimes it's fast on LFS... Then again there's not that much difference between a 'boat' set and a 'normal' set at FE

As a casual racer I have exactly one setup for each car, that I am most comfortable with and suits my drivingstyle, that I then go on to use on all tracks.
Unless you're an alien, only very minor tweaks are needed to have a setup you'll do good with from track to track. Being happy and familiar with a setup is more important.

In the case of roadcars, you'll only really need to change camber to keep tire temperatures in range. Some tracks and combinations are much harder on the tires then others. Everything else, gear ratio's, suspension, won't matter one bit if you're unhappy with a setup.
In the case of GTR's and formula cars it's slightly more complicated (luckily I never race those, although I will sometimes give a FO8 server a try if I happen to be so lucky to find one.) , because here downforce and slicks come into play. Two basic settings will work there too. (slow and tight, fast and open)

Again, unless you're an alien confidence and a setup you're familiar and happy with, along with practise will win you the time. It's only then tweaking your rollbar and righttoedamperwingletflipper to perfection will come into play for your laptimes. I'm not there yet.

Setups probably start making difference when Your times are fast. And You can feel it the best, when You've hotlapped for 20 hours on some track and You're about to make a suicide and then some fella comes along and says, hey, can You try my set and tell me if it's any good. Well, You try it and suddenly in few laps You find those last 0.2-0.3 secs to break the WR and You make the other guy wanna do a suicide and You're off the hook

And btw, in GTR Evo in the Touring cars I think the setups make much less difference than in LFS, cause I could get really close times with all kinds of sets I tried.

hahah, RudyTard0! you hero

Quote from [DUcK] :

Hi!

Well yeah, that should be true - most of the time. In pick up racing and hotlapping etc that's most certianly true. If you're doing enduro races with GTR cars, then sets are very important, not for speed, but for a mix of speed and tyre life. It's a difficult balance to find, one that takes time and fine tuning.

In saying that though, it's pretty easy to just grab any set you want on lfs and be reasonably fast with it. The only time you need to drasticaly change a set is when there's corners on the track that are not suitable for a normal set, for example Fern Bay with its massive kerbs. You'll usually see setups for there, with soft springs and high ride height, so it can run over kerbs more than possible with a regular setup. They handle like boats, but sometimes it's fast on LFS... Then again there's not that much difference between a 'boat' set and a 'normal' set at FE

Yes. FE.... That environment is home to the devil himself. The bridge after turn one on FE2R is where he spends most of his days......

Not only that, but it is always lying to you.. "come on. You can take this chicane faster then you think you can." Crash! "haha.. just kidding. sucker face noob"

Back on topic though. I didn't expect marvelous results from the setup I was using. But I did push it harder and attempted to use what it had to offer. If I were to be a racing event, I would definatly take more advantage of the setup features like you said. I think the gears are always up for a change regardless of track, unless they happen to fit well right off by chance. Final drive adjustment and then go. I could see where a good gear setup would help a lot in an enduro race if you could just stay out a few laps longer between pits and driver changes.

Thanks for your input.,

Jay Odom

I don't see the need to change gear ratios if you have a good rounded set. Unless you're going from SO Sprint to Westhill or vice-versa.. :o

(Nice racing yesterday Rudi. :shy