Hehe, some good points again

There has been suggestion many times before that there should be a competition to create contest, then the best would be implented to LFS, but I canot remember the devs giving a statement back on this, but we can guess that they do not agree.

They want to do the progress their way, witch is great no doubt, but maybe it's time to give the community a chance?

Scawen probally have enough babies soon to start his own kindergarten, and it will be time consuming. The other two's, is probally working on something, what - we don't know. Maybe Vic and Eric is dating someone, then the progress will be even more slow :scared:

Joke aside, if the community wants, and has the abilities to make LFS better, why won't you let them help you?

+ sides :

+ They do it free
+ Development will be faster
+ Probally more people buying lisence with new stuff

There are a lot of +'s, and some -'s of course, but I canot think of a good -' reason for why the devs won't let us help them out a little.

Quote from cardriverx :

Up to date graphics

No, thanks, I won't buy Core i7 and GTX 280 to play LFS.

Quote :

I canot think of a good -' reason for why the devs won't let us help them out a little.

They don't need a reason. They just don't want any help.

Quote from Shadowww :

No, thanks, I won't buy Core i7 and GTX 280 to play LFS.

There would be a button that says "use dx8 only" along with those little drop down menus for various visual process that you put on "low".

The fact that some people here are running 9 year old laptops for some reason is no excuse for LFS's extreamly dated graphics.

I don't think you can compare NFS with LFS, while Shift doesn't come. After that, is expected to have a NFS Simulator, then the comparison can be made.

And then why not to compare? Because LFS is in developing forever? Who cares? Gmail is in development and I use it.

Scawen said, in rFactor's thread, we can compare, so fanboys, forget this old argument.

Work in Progress doesn't mean "sorry, but that is nothing". We have a great simulator, with great features, and this is a product in the market, so I can, you can, everybody can compares it with any other similar product.

There is nothing more wasted than this same old argument that "LFS is not ready" and similar blablablas... LFS is a simulator, and it is on the market, period.

That said, I'd like to complete that yes, it looks somehow old, but the "new" iRacing doesn't look much newer now. NKP is something better, in some aspects, but not others.

As example, in NKP, the replays views inside the car (in fact on the top, not inside) are awful, as the same way if you watch Simbin and rFactor from the outside, while in LFS the textures, the image quality is the same, inside the car, outside the car, in replays, in game, etc.

LFS has much more graphic's things than others, like the possibility of change the point of view, hide the sterring wheel and driver's body, on the track, and etc, and that is fantastic.

There are many other features that just LFS has, but it can be improved, and so, why not suggest, complain, to dream aloud, why not?

I think LFS should be improved graphically, such as the trees, and little things about the car, such as more detailed body, etc.

The graphics and sound are very important part of any simulator, because to simulate is all about immersion, and you can't get really perfect immersion, with poor graphics and poor sounds.

So, lets consider that LFS has good physics (it still need to be improved. You can't drift that so easy IRL), and that is a WIP, but lets wait that the graphics and sound never stuck on the actual stage, with all the respect that Eric deserves for all the high quality material he has produced.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

They don't need a reason. They just don't want any help.

Anytime you let someone new inside your team you're relinquishing a part of the creative control - even assuming the guy does the work for free e.g. community contributed mods.

And BTW once you accept a contribution, you're bound to have more people asking to see their creations featured in the game.

Quote from The Very End :

-snip of like 3 posts-

The reasons why the Dev's don't want to allow anyone else to help them is most likely pride (although I'm making a shot into the dark).

LFS is their baby. And theirs only. In a way, it's like getting your best mate to get your girlfriend pregnant for you, if you see where I'm going.

The only thing done by anyone that I'd like to see added in the game is Chudys barrier mod, but even so that's not urgent. TBH I like being flung over 9000 ft into the air every so often - It's fun!

Quote from jrs_4500 :

I loved LFS, but compared to the other racing games out there, it's getting really old. Other games are more fun because they were DESIGNED to be fun. LFS is meant to be detailed and realistic. Not fun. However, it even fails in this respect- The cars have nothing on the bottom. NFS HP2, made back in 2002 has as good if not better car and track graphics than the 'latest and greatest', patch Z. The next patch has been put off until further notice due to lack of testing. I know this is some kind of transition period for LFS, but it's time for a change! (I'm going back to what is, at this point, the more realistic, more fun game until LFS has some SERIOUS updates) A progress report on the next patch would keep people like me somewhat interested. Anyone else agree?

7 years. Seven. It took me 7 years to get the chicane at Blackwood. I finally figured it out tonight.

For me this game has everything I need. For a guy like me, there are already too many cars. I need to focus on a couple just to see improvement. That's how I do drivers too. I'll get a couple in my speed range and keep after them. Problem is, they keep getting quicker too.

I see no end to it. If the software stopped progressing right now. I'd never run out of goals. That's why I buy gaming and simulation software. For the goals. Like becoming pure evil in Fable. Or master the light saber in Outcast. Problem with those is, I finished them.

I started racing sims because I love driving quickly. I wanted to drive against Senna and Mansel. I wanted to drive an F1. (Actually, I started with night driver in contests with my bros. Then Sprint and Hard Driving and the like.) I got World Circuit and GP2 and Viper and NFS and F1 2000 or what not, GPL...

I started racing karts because racing my bros on the mountain roads started getting expensive in tickets. (Fortunately not in lives. When we're young, some of us don't think too clearly.) My shifter kart costs $250 a day to run not including tracks fees, wrecks, breakage, travel and lodging.

When LFS came out, it took all of a week to realize that what I'm doing in my living room is EXACTLY what I'm doing on the race track in my kart. Minus a few Gs here and there. I'm competing (I use that term loosely and relatively.) against other drivers. I'm competing against myself. I'm learning how to manipulate physics. I am studying where I make choices under pressure.

Forgive me for saying, GPL just didn't do it. I was haggered by having to translate what I know about driving into the computer model. Same with all the others, GP4, STCC, NR2003... just didn't feel right. NFS? lol The others, rFactor, and (what was that?) racer? not quite lol. Haven't tried iRacing.

LFS is not just a realistic racing simulator. It's racing software. Based on road racing four wheeled automobiles. NFS, whatever it simulates, it's not that.

Slartibartfast, I do not know, but your talking sounds like coming from someone who was so soaked by the game, that lost contact with reality.
I like the LFS, but I do not see it as a simulator so faithful, not as in hand as the NKP or iRacing, for example.
Before, the LFS was the only one that connected me to the track, in a way that other games based on gmotor, could not. But with iRacing and NKP that I can connect, but with a more comprehensive handling.
I think this game can still improve a lot, and I hope it improves, both with respect to physical, as with the visual.
It is complicated to talk here. There is a great fanaticism, and a chat applicant, that the game is wonderful, and if it is improving or not, makes no difference.
The same people who now say that all is well, celebrate like crazy each minimum adjustment or improvement implemented, and create a new level of reference, and then say again that all is well now.
Them speak it since the age of S1. It is always the same thing. If it were up to a vision like yours, the game would be stopped even at that time, with 3 tracks, half a dozen cars and a physical primitive.
Do not see this as critical to the game. I am not attacking the game in this post, in any respect.
It is critical to this type of conformist opinion that is widespread here, which is in fact not the aim for any development, required for any software, and it is less the desired by the team of development, that work slowly, but works for the constant improvement of the game.

Let me make two points first:

1. That post was written tongue in cheek at the beginning. A self satire, if you will, of my intermediate skills. The intent did not transfer well as I digressed.

2. The only thing I am a fan boy of is racing other humans.

Why the Devs have been working alone has been well stated. It's simply another flavor. Another version of reality. Just like other sims have their reality. At this point I can't swing iracing. NK? Don't really feel it. That being said, I personally think Cart Precision Racing had a realistic feel that no one else has captured to this point. Also, in LFS, leagues can be set up in ways that only the imagination can limit. iRacing itself, seems a little limiting.

So, three more points:

1. LFS *is* progressing. There is nothing static about it. I personally like the direction the Devs are going. Their philosophy is right up my alley. Everything I pick at in other sims is settled in LFS. The tire physics are still off a bit for a RWD fan like myself. But not so far that the competition isn't like racing real cars that are simply a tad bit evil.

2. LFS seems to be that middle ground. I just told you I *got* CPR. Almost the whole world disagrees with me. Some people like the Kaemmer sims. I don't. Seems like a great percentage of people *get* LFS. I like dicing. If the sim allows a variety of people to dice. I'm all for it. NR2003 had somthing really nice in the rear tires. The way it caught a slide. For some other reason, I couldn't keep it on the track. Not fun for me.

3. If you like and spend time on other software. Great! Just realize, and then continue to realize, that LFS is on LFS schedule. LFS time is different for a reason. Included in that reason, graphics take a back seat to other things.

Now I'm gonna go try iRacing.

if lfs looks bad just plop lynce's reflections and the bloom mod into it

Where does one get the iRacing software?

Quote from Slartibartfast :

Where does one get the iRacing software?

You pay first or find it in alternative ways

The "alternate" way is an old version AFAIK.

Or you apply for the free trial of the Radical or something.

Sorry for highjacking this arguement but I was thinking about something.

LFS has been existing or 7 years and not even 2/3 of it is done. Let's say that, in a ideal world, S2 was completed in 2010...

The devs will have taken 8 years to bring their masterpiece to 2/3 of what they wanted it to be. If I follow that logic of 4 years per Stage, S3 wont be made before 2114.

I wonder if the devs will have the motivation to continue on when S2 is really finished. 12 years is a damn while for one single game.

If you keep following that logic, you might be wrong.

S3 could be done tomorrow, it could be done in 15 years.

2014? 5 more years? hmmm... I think it is possible...

I get the impression that they are making a physics engine, from the ground up. When you consider how close LFS is to the serious competition (Iracing imo) thats pretty impressive. LFS is actually superior in a number of ways too. If LFS could match iRacing's tracks there would be no contest. Sure the "Stock" graphics aren't as pretty as iRacing, but if you can see the difference you are going to slow...and if you add the high res packs it looks close enough really.

So I guess I've finally realised that I'm completly OK with the idea that LFS may be finished in 2014, because I bet by that time, it will still be at the top of the SIMs on the market. And probably for a lot cheaper that the competition too.

Very interesting thread here. IMO all this is a question of philosophy. With the recent posts from Eric and Scawen, I understand better how they see LFS (maybe).

They do not seem to consider it like a software company, but rather like a traditional craft company. For example a company producing limited series hand crafted cars.
In such craft company, the main objective is to create the best atmosphere for working. Too much production, too big team, and you introduce additional constraints which prevent you from fully focusing on the product. You have to cut costs, remove marketing, use a reduced team, work in small workshop to give the best result without getting prisonner of commercial constraints.

This is a great, ethical idea. I would like to create similar business (but hardware product)... product first, marketing to hell, never do anything that could result in a quality loss. But sometimes I wonder how this model can apply to software business. Writing a large piece of software like LFS is not like producing hand crafted cars, one after the other.

It is rather like building a castle. LFS grows all the time, each part added requires maintenance, repairs, improvements, and will consume another part of the workforce. For example, Eric has been carefuly adding textures for years, progressively...imagine the work required to make all these textures high-res now!
IMO, building larger and larger software without scaling the team leads to a progressive decrease of new features development rate and motivation. This is unavoidable, and in fact it is not a problem, it's their choice, it's their product. A bit frustrating sometimes for those who think LFS has the potential to eclipse all other racing sims like I do.
I admit this is very easy to dream about what Scavier should or should not do...I go back to work

LFS IS aging. Just like everyone of us.

:twocents:

Quote from Juls :

Very interesting thread here. IMO all this is a question of philosophy. With the recent posts from Eric and Scawen, I understand better how they see LFS (maybe).

They do not seem to consider it like a software company, but rather like a traditional craft company. For example a company producing limited series hand crafted cars.
In such craft company, the main objective is to create the best atmosphere for working. Too much production, too big team, and you introduce additional constraints which prevent you from fully focusing on the product. You have to cut costs, remove marketing, use a reduced team, work in small workshop to give the best result without getting prisonner of commercial constraints.

This is a great, ethical idea. I would like to create similar business (but hardware product)... product first, marketing to hell, never do anything that could result in a quality loss. But sometimes I wonder how this model can apply to software business. Writing a large piece of software like LFS is not like producing hand crafted cars, one after the other.

It is rather like building a castle. LFS grows all the time, each part added requires maintenance, repairs, improvements, and will consume another part of the workforce. For example, Eric has been carefuly adding textures for years, progressively...imagine the work required to make all these textures high-res now!
IMO, building larger and larger software without scaling the team leads to a progressive decrease of new features development rate and motivation. This is unavoidable, and in fact it is not a problem, it's their choice, it's their product. A bit frustrating sometimes for those who think LFS has the potential to eclipse all other racing sims like I do.
I admit this is very easy to dream about what Scavier should or should not do...I go back to work

Perfect comparison - there is nothing to add to that...

Quote from Juls :

Very interesting thread here. IMO all this is a question of philosophy. With the recent posts from Eric and Scawen, I understand better how they see LFS (maybe).

They do not seem to consider it like a software company, but rather like a traditional craft company. For example a company producing limited series hand crafted cars.
In such craft company, the main objective is to create the best atmosphere for working. Too much production, too big team, and you introduce additional constraints which prevent you from fully focusing on the product. You have to cut costs, remove marketing, use a reduced team, work in small workshop to give the best result without getting prisonner of commercial constraints.

This is a great, ethical idea. I would like to create similar business (but hardware product)... product first, marketing to hell, never do anything that could result in a quality loss. But sometimes I wonder how this model can apply to software business. Writing a large piece of software like LFS is not like producing hand crafted cars, one after the other.

It is rather like building a castle. LFS grows all the time, each part added requires maintenance, repairs, improvements, and will consume another part of the workforce. For example, Eric has been carefuly adding textures for years, progressively...imagine the work required to make all these textures high-res now!
IMO, building larger and larger software without scaling the team leads to a progressive decrease of new features development rate and motivation. This is unavoidable, and in fact it is not a problem, it's their choice, it's their product. A bit frustrating sometimes for those who think LFS has the potential to eclipse all other racing sims like I do.
I admit this is very easy to dream about what Scavier should or should not do...I go back to work

+ infinite

I see it a bit different. First of all I have to say that I like LFS. You have to see it from two point of views. First there is the development side. The devs want to make a simulation that is as close to reality as possible and that takes some time. From the beginning of LFS there is an advantage in netcode and stability compared to other race simulations. But nearly all other simulations do have more manpower to develop things in a shorter period of time. So other simulations will close the gap very rapidly. Maybe I'm wrong with that but future will tell us...
The other side are the users (or should i say customers?). People like us want to race with "heroes" and want to reach the same level. I hope that the development of LFS is fast enough to keep those (best) drivers away from getting bored with LFS. If those drivers (and even some of those) will quit playing LFS and race other simulations a lot of normal race drivers will follow them immediately. And here I see the biggest problem, because I think this has allready begun. Hopefully future will proove me wrong...

The "Ancient Young" will be the title of S3 when it is released, and this will be the lauching's movie: http://www.benjaminbutton.com/

Quote from Juls :

It is rather like building a castle.

While others build sky-scrapers.

The limitation of a 3 person development team is going to result in slow progress once a certain level of content is achieved, which is where we're at now.