Hopefully they'll get into a better swing of things, although TBH I don't think I'll be around when S3 comes out.
I really do hope LFS gets to S3 in like 2010 or something.
E: And having read Juls' post, I'd like to take this time to say "+1".
Hopefully they'll get into a better swing of things, although TBH I don't think I'll be around when S3 comes out.
I really do hope LFS gets to S3 in like 2010 or something.
E: And having read Juls' post, I'd like to take this time to say "+1".
+99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
I've said it before, but their work rate must be influenced by license sales. I'm sure that if they were to drop off significantly then they would do something to attract attention once again.
It's either a sign of incredible confidence in your own work, or of complacency, that they are prepared to allow things to move so slowly (regardless of their work ethic). It's like they're saying: "new sims may come along, even ones with the exact same philosophy as ours- but they won't be as good as ours is, so let's take our time".
It's a good job it is so good. I love LFS, but sometimes I wonder why they don't attempt to simply please the loyal fans more. For me the only annoyance is that we don't get new tracks ever really, unless they're in a S1/S2/S3 package. And to me that's not enough when there's so much time between them, to remind you all, S2 Alpha will be 4, count'em, 4 years old in June. At least tell us you have absolutely no intention to release new track environments for the next X years.
That's the only way it is aging to me, the graphics are adequate, and in every other way beside content there is little that I would want changing that badly. If I were a new arrival I'd think it was brilliant.
It's either a sign of incredible confidence in your own work, or of complacency, that they are prepared to allow things to move so slowly (regardless of their work ethic). It's like they're saying: "new sims may come along, even ones with the exact same philosophy as ours- but they won't be as good as ours is, so let's take our time".
It's a good job it is so good. I love LFS, but sometimes I wonder why they don't attempt to simply please the loyal fans more. For me the only annoyance is that we don't get new tracks ever really, unless they're in a S1/S2/S3 package. And to me that's not enough when there's so much time between them, to remind you all, S2 Alpha will be 4, count'em, 4 years old in June. At least tell us you have absolutely no intention to release new track environments for the next X years.
That's the only way it is aging to me, the graphics are adequate, and in every other way beside content there is little that I would want changing that badly. If I were a new arrival I'd think it was brilliant.
First they must do better anti-cracker system
I see once again I'll have to beg to differ on this topic. Skip reading this post if you hate harsh things like reality and business, and like to dream of a place and time where LFS is some kind of luxury product only a select number of refined gentlemen can taste or feel. This is a long post, don't read it unless your attention span exceeds 1 minute. Please don't reply unless you want to read this post and really think about it. PM me rotten eggs and vegetables, they will be routed to /dev/null 
Yep, in your dreams. Basically guys, if you're thinking this is true, you're fooling yourself. Only yourself.
Today even NPO are managed as firms, non-profit is just a constraint meaning the firm cannot retain profit inside itself. Example? Bosch was sort of a NPO last time I checked. Yep you still find their products in every mall around the world like it was Nestlé or whatever.
The example Juls brings to the table is clearly that of a business where the main objective is stay widely in black: the more they can, the better it is because they never know whatever threats may come from the market (think of Lancia, eventually the family was lucky enough to sell to Agnelli otherwise they would have been in a lot of trouble).
The actions a small manufacturing enterprise working in a luxury niche are bound to be different to a degree from those undertaken by a big corporations, but if you have ever been e.g. in a Lexus dealership, you should know already that mood, brand association, imagery, emotion manipulation and all the paraphernalia are all tools of the trade even for Toyota, of anybody!
Now consider Ferrari for a minute. They once were very small, until one day Enzo Ferrari had to recognize the business has outgrown his own skills and ability to manage it.
If that decision was skipped, delayed, handled in a different way, Ferrari might have joined the ranks of all those illustrious brands which now are just trading material for those once-not-very-illustrious german brands we all know (think Lamborghini or Bugatti)
If you followed all through this premise, it should be clear that Scavier has something in common with Ferrari, something not, something maybe.
What they do NOT share?
Scavier is not a small enterprise. It's not a manufacturing business. It's not even in the luxury segment of their chosen market, that having been taken hold of by iRacing.
They also relinquished control on the servers thus largely demanded to others the task of setting the atmosphere for their product.
Now what they DO share?
Their main target still is to make as much profit as possible.
So what is your damend point?!
The point up for debate is whether they have already reached a stage where their business has outgrown their own abilities to manage it. If not, one day they will and face that bottleneck that every other growing small business has bumped into, then make a choice:
Yep, in your dreams. Basically guys, if you're thinking this is true, you're fooling yourself. Only yourself.
Today even NPO are managed as firms, non-profit is just a constraint meaning the firm cannot retain profit inside itself. Example? Bosch was sort of a NPO last time I checked. Yep you still find their products in every mall around the world like it was Nestlé or whatever.
The example Juls brings to the table is clearly that of a business where the main objective is stay widely in black: the more they can, the better it is because they never know whatever threats may come from the market (think of Lancia, eventually the family was lucky enough to sell to Agnelli otherwise they would have been in a lot of trouble).
The actions a small manufacturing enterprise working in a luxury niche are bound to be different to a degree from those undertaken by a big corporations, but if you have ever been e.g. in a Lexus dealership, you should know already that mood, brand association, imagery, emotion manipulation and all the paraphernalia are all tools of the trade even for Toyota, of anybody!
Now consider Ferrari for a minute. They once were very small, until one day Enzo Ferrari had to recognize the business has outgrown his own skills and ability to manage it.
If that decision was skipped, delayed, handled in a different way, Ferrari might have joined the ranks of all those illustrious brands which now are just trading material for those once-not-very-illustrious german brands we all know (think Lamborghini or Bugatti)
If you followed all through this premise, it should be clear that Scavier has something in common with Ferrari, something not, something maybe.
What they do NOT share?
Scavier is not a small enterprise. It's not a manufacturing business. It's not even in the luxury segment of their chosen market, that having been taken hold of by iRacing.
They also relinquished control on the servers thus largely demanded to others the task of setting the atmosphere for their product.
Now what they DO share?
Their main target still is to make as much profit as possible.
So what is your damend point?!
The point up for debate is whether they have already reached a stage where their business has outgrown their own abilities to manage it. If not, one day they will and face that bottleneck that every other growing small business has bumped into, then make a choice:
- either they'll quit
- turn their business in a more organized form (think of Google, it's big, powerful, but certainly not managed in a traditional way)
- invent a new business model which will be known by MBA students as the Roberts-Bailey-Van Vlaardingen model or god knows what else
The only problem I have with this is that is assumes the idea is to make money. Scawen has stated;
I must agree, and this is where it becomes a philosophy discussion. I tend to think that modern economic principles are flawed, and that an economy based currency rather than resources is doomed, or at least retarded (in the literal sense, IE it's growth is slowed). More likely though is this idea, this is simply a hobby that they enjoy, and happen to make some money from. They may have decided that the quality of their lives does not depend on money, but rather the day to day living.
I must agree, and this is where it becomes a philosophy discussion. I tend to think that modern economic principles are flawed, and that an economy based currency rather than resources is doomed, or at least retarded (in the literal sense, IE it's growth is slowed). More likely though is this idea, this is simply a hobby that they enjoy, and happen to make some money from. They may have decided that the quality of their lives does not depend on money, but rather the day to day living.
I did not want to say Scavier makes a luxury product, but craft in the traditional, pre-marketing age way.
It has little to do with luxury, brand association, imagery, emotion manipulation...
To take another comparison, Italy...I heard about guys there who still make tailored shoes, in small workshop for same price than mass-produced shoes.
It works because their products are known for their quality, and because they do not have any of the costs modern companies have.
Guys working in these workshops do almost no marketing and do not need any, and would rather die than work in a different way. Very different from Ferrari and others.
You completely missed my point. Their target, like for the shoemaker, would be to keep doing what they like, and live from it, as long as possible. This way of thinking may be very rare among software developers, but is still very common in Europe, and often prevalent among traditional craft workers. Quality of life first.
It has little to do with luxury, brand association, imagery, emotion manipulation...
To take another comparison, Italy...I heard about guys there who still make tailored shoes, in small workshop for same price than mass-produced shoes.
It works because their products are known for their quality, and because they do not have any of the costs modern companies have.
Guys working in these workshops do almost no marketing and do not need any, and would rather die than work in a different way. Very different from Ferrari and others.
You completely missed my point. Their target, like for the shoemaker, would be to keep doing what they like, and live from it, as long as possible. This way of thinking may be very rare among software developers, but is still very common in Europe, and often prevalent among traditional craft workers. Quality of life first.
i disagree im 14 and i hate nfs
but i agree that nfs is the most unrealistic racing game
You're exactly right. And you don't need to take my word for it either. Scawen has said it before, many times - both directly and indirectly, and most importantly in every fibre of what LFS is and how it's being developed.
LFS is part of a goal, for the devs, and the goal is to live a full and happy life. LFS is both a means to that end and also an end in itself. And it's working.
Any other speculation on what LFS is, or what people think the devs should be doing with LFS, is just pointless. The devs know exactly what their aims are, and they know exactly how they want to approach the process of achieving them.
Well, except nothing you say has even a remote connection to the reality of LFS. Business models differ between companies just as the expected returns from said businesses differ.
Sam and the others said it quite well. You would do yourself a favor if you actually paid attention to what they said. And no, it isn't being a "fanboy" to understand and appreciate the business model that LFS has been created under. If you don't like the business model, then fine, that's your prerogative. But don't criticize something you don't understand.
This is the main point, I think. Ever since I joined LFS, there has been much too much forum talk on the subject of how the community can 'help' speed development. The perennial concern being that three people just isn't enough to develop a game these days, and that in order to remain relevent the devs require additional support, whether from outside in the community, or as new members of the develepment team. The dev response- that they really don't need or want any kind of help whatsoever, is to be respected, but it is also probably sometimes felt as dissapointment by anyone in the community who imagines that they might be able to contribute something of worth to the project. Maybe that's why the same arguments get bought up again and again- people want a different answer to the one that's been given time and time again.
But Sam is right, and keeping the same arguments circulating is just a waste of time, no matter how angry or dissilusioned people want to get about things. Maybe what needs to happen is some sort of disclaimer by the devs as a sticky in the forum- an official statement that makes things clear on this subject for everybody. Of course that sounds like I'm telling the devs what they should do, and I don't want it to sound like that.
Anyway, this is my last post on this- because I'm completely bored of this whole topic, and I'm sure everybody else is as well.
To be honest, the only thing I'm more "bored" of than some people guessing at what the Dev's are doing/what they will be doing/how and when they're doing it, is the simple fact that there hasn't been an update since July in 2008... and yes, before someone moans I'm very patient and you'll have a hard time finding a "nagging for an update post" from me within the past year..
You know guys, perhaps if everyone magically shut up and stopped complaining, the Devs may work faster..
As E.K suggests, an disclaimer or statement should shut alot of people up. Failing that, users should be banned by discression of the mods for being whinging little pricks.
You know guys, perhaps if everyone magically shut up and stopped complaining, the Devs may work faster..
As E.K suggests, an disclaimer or statement should shut alot of people up. Failing that, users should be banned by discression of the mods for being whinging little pricks.
Nfs!!!! Baaaahahahahaha*cough*ahahaaaahaa
I have always been in support of the devs and the time taken to make updates and all that, but seriously its getting abit average. I payed for this game a LONG time ago. To use the excuse: 'yes but those games are finished this game is not' is stupid. This is the longest pre-order I think I will ever purchase in my life. Also, it is called live for speed, but perhaps it needs a name change now to Speed of the 80's or something as the look and feel of the cars is so dated.
And you are here to assure that their way of life will be no scratched? So, if people don't complain, as said by Jamie, maybe the devs could make more in a shorter time?
I think we are here talking about a comercial product that is sold on the market, and we as customers and fans, have the right to wait for more that match with this:
"A serious simulator obviously requires a very good physics simulation to provide the thrill and fun of real racing. This is done by simulating ALL ASPECTS that are important to racing."
We are not saying that LFS is not good, or the devs have not delivered what them promise under the announced price. We read the contract before buying.
We are waiting for improvements, and we are here to say that we will not give up so easy. We hope and trust that one day these things will be done, things like engine and brake heating, breakable parts, more tracks, and etc. And we will be facing people who just say amem, until the day we got banned from this server. Any problem with that? Are we offending someone?
Or are we about making the way of life of the devs something less that them intend?
I think not. BTW, we have too much respect for them, we are not here to bash anyone, or complaining just because we like to complain. We play LFS, we talk about LFS (BTW,I have no idea how many people play LFS today because me).
I understand that LFS is a product, dont matter if it is a happy way of life for a hippie or a serious comercial fact, but it is a product, it is on the market, we like it, we want more, and we are here just to say that. What is the problem with this?
If threads like that is "just pointless" or not, keep in mind that is just a result of the way "to approach the process of achieving", so reap the roses, they come with thorns.
(The Very End)
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by SamH : Too much information
I don't post much but I couldn't let this one go without a comment. I have to agree with you on so many levels it's unreal, Jay. I'm frequently embarrassed by the posts that many, not all, but many Americans make in these forums. I don't know if it is a cultural difference or what but it gives the impression (to the rest of the world) that so many of us want everything now, now, now...and to Hell with putting forth any effort. That's certainly not always the case, but it constantly rears its ugly head around here and in many other forums involving more complex sims.
I'm a pretty passive guy. I've been in law enforcement for over 9 years and and I spend most of my day putting up with other people's crap. When I get home (and the wife's tucked in) I "play" hardcore flight and racing sims to unwind...and trust me, after dealing with the people I have to deal with on a daily basis, I need to unwind.
I recently got into a heated argument with a guy that I've played Rock Band online with off and on for over a year now. This guy, a fellow American I might add, is in his 30's, has kids, and still lives with his mom. (Way to set an example for his kids, not to mention a worrying and increasingly common trend amongst many Americans these days.) The argument started over his claim that Gran Turismo is the greatest driving simulator ever made. Since he has a vastly superior computer to the one I have, I recommended some common PC racing sims. Real sims. I explained the general differences between console and PC racing titles and the benefits sims like LFS offer like more realistic physics, smooth online play, extremely detailed stats, TrackIr support, a very supportive and more mature community, a higher degree of mature racers, etc. I convinced him to try LFS and all he could talk about were the "sorry graphics" and the "crap physics". I replied, "You've got to be kidding me? Right?" His reply, "Need For Speed Pro Street has better physics...and LFS doesn't feel right with my controller." ...silence... "How's your wheel set up?" Reply: "Noobs use wheels. I can beat anyone with a controller. I own." The result: Instant deletion from friends list / my migration back to PC sims.
The shocking realization: This guy represents the average game consumer and the reason that the sim genre's heyday is going the way of the do-do bird.
I just don't get it. Where do these people come from and since when were graphics the end-all be-all and continous updates demanded more than just expected? What happened to the old addage, "You get out of it what you put into it"? Frankly, I'm often disgusted that so many people (especially my fellow Americans) are missing the point of what a simulation is and why flash and glitz is so far down on the totem pole of importance. It also pains me that they whine so much over the progress of development and then compare it to newer titles of lesser quality and substance. We all paid the devs for LFS as-is. It's been a wonderful title and it's only gotten better. It hasn't cost us a penny more than we originally paid for the license. In my opinion, we need to step back and admit that we've received a heck of a lot more than we paid for and LFS is still truckin' right along. Besides GPL, RBR, and NR2003, most surving racing titles older than LFS, with communities of any respectable size, are few and far between.
I've been dropping in and out of here since I got LFS in 2007. I keep up on the forums but I stay pretty quiet. I don't race online much but I've logged an enormous amount offline laps. For longevity and bang for your buck LFS just can't be beat. Console racers as well as a good number of PC sims fade within a year or two, if not sooner. I've been flying Falcon 4.0 and Allied Force since 1999-2000. I've put weeks of time into IL2. By today's standards, the graphics in those sims absolutley suck. But that doesn't make them bad sim. Like LFS, they're great sims because they do so many things right. It's a crying shame that the hardcore PC flight sim community is dying and it’s not because of the inability of the devs to produce quality titles. It's because of the average consumer's short attention span and lack of patience. It’s also a refusal to actually learn and develop skills to be successful.
Many of my fellow Americans are falling into this category of "pick up and play" and I’ve yet to understand it. Not many people are willing to put forth the effort to understand a sim like Falcon. Having to actually study its 716 page manual that merely scratches the surface of what it has to offer is asking too much for the average Joe. Likewise, take a look at how many people in LFS actually take the time to study the basics of racing or learn how to set up their own car to get the best out of the sim. Logging 291 miles and worrying about how a car's bottom end looks is missing the point of what a sim is. I'm not knocking you jrs_4500. I'm just making a point. Go to almost any dedicated PC sim community and you'll find so of the most helpful people you could ever hope for. Just understand the difference between arcade and sim.
Oh, and if you want to see if a game is aging, check here: http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/
Thousands of people are still supporting many sims developed in the 1990's and they are still going strong. Compared to it's competition, LFS is a testament to the longevity of a racing sim because of it's quality, continued support by the devs, and the great community. NFS-HP2 and the like is never gonna have legs like that.
As my friends across the pond say,
Cheers
:smash3d::chairfall:riceboy::huepfenic
illepall:smileyrai
:chair::smash::uglyhamme:doh::chairs::biggrinfl
:slap::ices_rofl
All I can say about this.
:iagree:
Yeah here in europe we have the same its not just america trust me I also had a freind who saw forza2 as the holy grale BIG mistake......
IMo any racing game wich is very much playable with a controller is shitty.
I do have Forza 2 and Xbox live i enjoy it but i do realise its good but to arcadish butif id say tbat out load theyd just flame since the most poeple that play games like forza are the nowdays average consumner
Oh, I'm sorry Speed Soro, did I stop you trolling in your other thread?
I can't be bothered dismantling your post. You use rhetoric like it's going out of fashion, but rhetoric is what politicians use to try to manipulate the electorate when their argument doesn't withstand scrutiny.
Suffice it to say that, despite the implicit message in your posts, LFS development is not open to negotiation. No amount of incessant trolling from you will change that fact. You don't have to like it - and you've made each of your objections clear many times over - but you ARE going to have to accept it. You're a smiling troll, but nothing more than that.
As I said in the other thread, your 4-year posting history shows nothing but forum disruption - and with each example, you issue your signature "I just want what's best for LFS". No you don't.
This is not a democracy, it's the LFS community and it has more entitlement to freedom from disruption and misery than you have to freedom of speech. Enough is enough. It stops now.
I can't be bothered dismantling your post. You use rhetoric like it's going out of fashion, but rhetoric is what politicians use to try to manipulate the electorate when their argument doesn't withstand scrutiny.
Suffice it to say that, despite the implicit message in your posts, LFS development is not open to negotiation. No amount of incessant trolling from you will change that fact. You don't have to like it - and you've made each of your objections clear many times over - but you ARE going to have to accept it. You're a smiling troll, but nothing more than that.
As I said in the other thread, your 4-year posting history shows nothing but forum disruption - and with each example, you issue your signature "I just want what's best for LFS". No you don't.
This is not a democracy, it's the LFS community and it has more entitlement to freedom from disruption and misery than you have to freedom of speech. Enough is enough. It stops now.
He wants what is best for him he doenst care about the rest of us as I can see from hist posts
Yeah, I know. It's just kinda disheartening to see where sims in general are going. I understand that devs gotta make a profit and I'm totally, completely cool with that. My beef is that people are getting so dumbed down in what they expect from a title. The masses want graphics and "pick up and play games" and the sim communities will naturally suffer as a result.
People can complain all they want about LFS, but one day it's gonna be gone and all we're gonna be left with is Need For Speed Hot Pursuit Across the Continent 12 HD with awesome DLC that you can pay extra for, so no need to play to unlock cars, just buy em from our super slick website and then next year we'll release NFS Hot Pursuit Edition 13 but 12's cars won't carry over so spend more folks!
People ought to be thankful for what they got imo.When it's gone, it's gone. People need to support the devs and quit whining so much.
People can complain all they want about LFS, but one day it's gonna be gone and all we're gonna be left with is Need For Speed Hot Pursuit Across the Continent 12 HD with awesome DLC that you can pay extra for, so no need to play to unlock cars, just buy em from our super slick website and then next year we'll release NFS Hot Pursuit Edition 13 but 12's cars won't carry over so spend more folks!
People ought to be thankful for what they got imo.When it's gone, it's gone. People need to support the devs and quit whining so much.
(Shadowww)
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by SamH : Duh
I can imagine how you're seeing it, but I'm not sure that there's necessarily a direct connection between the increase in popularity for dumbed-down/arcadey games and any decrease in racing simulation popularity.
The sim mentality has always been a niche market.. small in numbers, and generally a bit geekish. I think the desire for a realistic physics simulation is something that comes from deep-down in someone.. perhaps even at the genetic level, and I honestly don't think that a person with that "sim gene" would ever be satisfied with NFS or GTA etc.
I do think they might *start* there, though. They might even buy a wheel for it.. but sooner or later, their curiosity will peak and they'll wonder if there's a sim out there that can quench their thirst for realism. They'll go Googling, searching the forums, and eventually find a discussion about a sim that sounds like it might meet their needs. Enter LFS
Hello, everybody seems to forget something.....
Did you imagine how much money Scavier will earn when the S3 will be released? How many players will buy the S3? I will, and all the forum too.
SO bussness is bussness so there are no questions to ask, Scavier is working on S3 because money is a motivation, even if its not the only one, this is a BIG motivation. And i agree with them, they worked on this game since 10 years, so it s logic that now, they win money. So for me, S3 wll be released in a short time. Because its too much important...
Well that s just my advice ^^
I dont remember to see that point on the forum... so.
Did you imagine how much money Scavier will earn when the S3 will be released? How many players will buy the S3? I will, and all the forum too.
SO bussness is bussness so there are no questions to ask, Scavier is working on S3 because money is a motivation, even if its not the only one, this is a BIG motivation. And i agree with them, they worked on this game since 10 years, so it s logic that now, they win money. So for me, S3 wll be released in a short time. Because its too much important...
Well that s just my advice ^^
I dont remember to see that point on the forum... so.
Yeah IMO modern sims Like GTR evo and GTR2 are weird compared to LFS
rFactor can be good with the right mods but its stil lacks the feel of contact the only sim that can reasonably doe this beside LFS is acuatly a sim with the most dumb name ever IMO Netkar I want to laugh at the name but cant becaus of the quality contend and physics it has.
Al the games games in genral tend to focus on Graphics only withput realy good phycics for lets say racing simulation games.
Or al the other games who have uber graphics but mis the storyline to keep you hooked.
games should have they key elements again to keeo me hooked i actualy have no realy new games besides GRT evo and forza2.
IMO for sims the oldies are the goodies
Is LFS aging? A lot?
(231 posts, started )
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