Hi there.
First of all thanks for the patch and great work. Definitly a step towards the right direction (realism).
Love how the F1 car is done, eventhough I don't like OW as much as "real" cars *g*

I love street cars. The small ones that are driven on demo servers. And there I can compare to the real world, because I am driving mine sometimes to the limit. But I didn't drive a F1 car yet.

The problem with tyres which still remains is the longitudinal behaviour as written in your progress report.
The way tyres behave under acceleration and braking. Its simply still wrong.

The FWD car on street tyres (GTI) accelerates best when pushing the petal to the metal. With hard spinning wheels it still manages a 7.13 and ace in training. You don't need any feeling whereas IRL you have to be careful with the throttle in a FWD car, if you wanna go off fast.
Same goes for braking. Locked wheels may be damaged while braking, but they still provide the shortest braking way, which is again wrong.

And because everything is calculated the same way, the ingame physics way, cornering behaviour can't be true this way, because longitudinal behaviour is also important for cornering. The correct grip behaviour of spinning or locked wheels is important for everything.

The RWD cars are better now, but still FZ50 without TC or RA are much more dangerous and difficult to drive than comparable cars in RL (like Porsche e.g.)

I also noticed, that it is very hard to get your car drifting by suddenly take away throttle. You can go fast in a corner and than full throttle, no throttle, full throttle. The car won't begin to drift because of the transfer of weight. If it really starts to drift, then because its a RWD car and got to much power full throttle on the rear wheels and make them spin. Not because weight was transfered away from the back. So its very hard to do that with a fwd car.

(EDIT: this may be the result of setup and is perhabs no fault of wrong physics)

In my oppinion rFactor still is more believable in the result of simulating street cars. No matter how they do it and even if they just readout data and don't calculate anything.

I really hope that tyre physics isn't supposed to be finished for a while. I hope there will be further improvements in the next patch regarding spinning and locked longitudinal behaviour.
This would also make starts and braking much more interessting. At the moment starts with street cars are boring because of this problem and because there is no free start at all.
And braking wrong with locked wheels isn't punished as hard as it should be (in RL you would slide off course ...)

Have fun with the new patch all
RIP

OMG!

Quote from mkinnov8 :

OMG!

What? RIP2004 has very good points.

Yeah has a few good points... especially the FWD full acceleration stuff.

And also the fact that lift oversteer is not very easy to perform in most of the RWD cars. Understeer counteracts this.

ive thrashed the new physics a bit in the other thread but some of your points are just not valid

Quote from RIP2004 :

Same goes for braking. Locked wheels may be damaged while braking, but they still provide the shortest braking way, which is again wrong.

i just tried at the car park with a gti and my results were that the distance is more or less the same with locking causing slightly longer braking distances which is correct

Quote :

The RWD cars are better now, but still FZ50 without TC or RA are much more dangerous and difficult to drive than comparable cars in RL (like Porsche e.g.)

have you ever driven one of the old porsches without esp and with rather simplistic dampers ? from what ive heard theyre widowmakers

Quote :

I also noticed, that it is very hard to get your car drifting by suddenly take away throttle. You can go fast in a corner and than full throttle, no throttle, full throttle. The car won't begin to drift because of the transfer of weight. If it really starts to drift, then because its a RWD car and got to much power full throttle on the rear wheels and make them spin. Not because weight was transfered away from the back. So its very hard to do that with a fwd car.

must be your setups ... whendrifting ive mostly used lift off in q and i still do in s ... and the fwd also get some nice lift off oversteer

edit:

about full acell on fwds ... havent checked with perf view or anything yet but judging by the sound the tyres spin a lot less than back in q when taking off full throttle and if im not mistaken a tiny amount of slip will give you the largest longitudinal forces

Quote from Shotglass :

about full acell on fwds ... havent checked with perf view or anything yet but judging by the sound the tyres spin a lot less than back in q when taking off full throttle and if im not mistaken a tiny amount of slip gives you the largest longitudinal forces

Agreed.

In a car like the GTi I doubt dropping the clutch would make much difference to accel times. Only higher powered cars can lose enough traction for long enough to seriously affect acceleration. It's not just the fact that the wheels are spinning, more like just how great the differential is between road speed and wheel speed.

You don't need perf view, to see how hard they are spinning.

Just watch the revs. They are about 8000 from 0 to 40 or 50 kph. This is a HUGE difference between speed and engine revs and therefore the wheels are spinning badly.
And it makes a difference, even in very low powered cars. Ever accelerated a FWD car in rain? See what happens if you have to much throttle ... you will move hardly ...

about oversteer problem :
As I said it could be the setup. But in rFactor for example it works with every car with the default setup. And I am not the only one which has a problem to use this kind of oversteer. See Tweaker. He described it perfectly. There is often understeer then ...


I am not really sure about the braking but in my first tests there was no real difference between locked wheels and a good braking method. But I will test it again ...

Yeah perhabs the RWD cars should behave like very old cars. But the problems in longitudinal behaviour make the behaviour in general wrong. The great thing about LFS is that all the physics act together. And if anything is wrong it will affect everything ... so I am not sure if it would be easier without that problem. But it would be different.

Quote from RIP2004 :

And it makes a difference, even in very low powered cars. Ever accelerated a FWD car in rain? See what happens if you have to much throttle ... you will move hardly ...

theres huge difference between how a tyre acts on a wet road and on a dry one ... on a dry one the optimum slip is somewhere around 0.3 afaik on a wet road its much much lower

Quote :

As I said it could be the setup. But in rFactor for example it works with every car with the default setup. And I am not the only one which has a problem to use this kind of oversteer. See Tweaker. He described it perfectly. There is often understeer then ...

most of the race_s setups use high coast lock => little to no lift off oversteer

Maybe with rain. But its also on the dry like this. My car has enough power on the dry (150 bhp on FWD) and it is anything but not a good start with hard spinning wheels. A very short spin is good, but not this bad spinning like with the GTI in LFS.

The problem remains. A full throttle, hard spinning start is the perfect method to get away ... but only in LFS. Even GT4 on the playstation has better physics regarding this issue.

I must test this for myself.

One thought I had is that it would be very hard without an analogue clutch (which I thankfully possess) to truly launch a car the way one would in real life. If you don't, the only alternative is to floor the thing with no clutch slip which would not lend itself to rapid acceleration unless your gearing is setup perfectly for low end acceleration, which would lead to wheel spin once the revs get up a bit. So in the GTi I could still see dropping the clutch at 8000RPM (gear still determines wheel speed, and with low power, the tires probably are not spinning as wildly as you think even with the engine at 8000RPM) being faster than bogging the engine. A proper start with higher revs and some clutch slip and some minor wheel spin should be the best result, I agree.

I didn't really look at the clutch. But I think I didn't see any blue graphic left. So no clutch. And 8000 revs or so are about 40 or 50 kph, where you have to shift in second to continue acceleration.
Therefore wheels are spinning at lets say 40 kph all the time. So in the beginning there is a difference of about 40 kph, which gets smaller and smaller.
Sure, a proper start is difficult without a real clutch. I just want to see that full throttle isn't the best thing. And I don't want boring starts anymore.

Ever tried a start with these cars in rFactor? There are big differences between people starting there and it is great fun. I want this also in LFS (remove this arcade style signal and give us a free start also plz)

I have to test the thing with the diffs. Could be the reason for the problem with oversteer ...

Quote from RIP2004 :

(remove this arcade style signal and give us a free start also plz)

Alright, THAT I totally agree with!

I agree with the starting thing. Can't be that hard thing to code. I kinda hoped it would've been changed for this patch... but still didn't.

Quote from RIP2004 :

And it makes a difference, even in very low powered cars. Ever accelerated a FWD car in rain? See what happens if you have to much throttle ... you will move hardly ...

Hmmm, where is the mindtrick in that thought?

Rofl

There is no mindtrick.

Two seperate things.

1. Even with low powered cars you will achieve a massive wheelspin in the dry if you rev to the limiter and just take the foot of the clutch. It will last not as long as in a high powered car, but it should be enough for the first few kph and meters.

2. Everyone with every kind of car (low or high power and FWD) can experience the effects in the wet. Because usually noone tries that, but in the wet it happens not only voluntarily ...
It is a bit different and stronger in rain, but you'll see effect. Same in dry but not as easy to see usually ...

yes, more realism.

Quote from RIP2004 :

There is no mindtrick.

Two seperate things.

1. Even with low powered cars you will achieve a massive wheelspin in the dry if you rev to the limiter and just take the foot of the clutch. It will last not as long as in a high powered car, but it should be enough for the first few kph and meters.

2. Everyone with every kind of car (low or high power and FWD) can experience the effects in the wet. Because usually noone tries that, but in the wet it happens not only voluntarily ...
It is a bit different and stronger in rain, but you'll see effect. Same in dry but not as easy to see usually ...

well, in dry you loose grip WAY harder and regain grip WAY faster. I am not saying, actual tire-phys are right, but you base your accusations on pure speculations, you havent even tested yourself. SImple thing: Rain != Try => Not a real comparison is possible.

Quote from RIP2004 :

The problem remains. A full throttle, hard spinning start is the perfect method to get away ... but only in LFS. Even GT4 on the playstation has better physics regarding this issue.

gt4's tyres suck totally...you have virtually no grip when accelerating, which leads to acceleration times being way off from the real counterparts, but then way too much lateral grip where its almost impossible to get most cars to drift.
LFS is way more realistic there.

maybe you should try your theories with the FXO, the gti has not ernough power to find a proper conclusion here.

oh and you have hardly ernough feel in pc-wheels' brakes to really modulate the brake...but i have tested this extensively with the measure tool on autocross and locking the wheels will not procide you with the shortest braking distance! but its so hard to really brake properly on a pc simulation that you are not able to really see a difference.

Tell my summer tyres, that I did it in the wet. I have to change them this month. Ever smelled ruber? Would be a hardcore car to make the tyres smoke and smell in the wet

Quote from RIP2004 :

Tell my summer tyres, that I did it in the wet. I have to change them this month. Ever smelled ruber? Would be a hardcore car to make the tyres smoke and smell in the wet

jesus christ! would you please stop comparing the performance of your car in the WET with LFS???illepall

jesus christ : learn to read and understand. Then you would notice, that I tested it in the dry ... for real. And not only on the playstation or on pc. The only problem is, that it is bit more expensive for real. But they had to be changed anyway this summer ...

LOL...

Anyhow, I think a better test would be to setup the FX0 with some closer to road car gearing, then perform the test with the FX0 - a redline drop, versus a controlled partial clutch launch versus a dead stop "keyboard style" start without wheel spin. It should show the second type the fastest, the first test in the middle, and the last launch the slowest. And I seriously think it will. GMeter would be best to use. I know it has accel times, and can't remember if it has 60foot times etc...

Perhaps I'll try this later tonight if I feel the urge.

The car you choose won't matter.

Just watch the online races and the starts. Everyone with the same setup is exactly as fast as you are. All start with full throttle.
Doesn't matter if it is FZ50, FXO or GTI ...

But try it. I wanna see data ...