Quote from only.one.RydeR :

To NightShift: you wouldn't understand, I don't too actually, but there's just something in scriptures that say something about contraception.

On the contrary I think I understand too well, I have to live with the funny beliefs the catholics want to impose onto others basically every day, enjoying the privilege to live in the state that financially feeds the Vatican and its luxurious style of living using the hard-earned money of tax payers.

Want an example of that? Pope and his cronies have raised a fuss over the case of Luana Englaro, a girl that has been cerebrally dead as a result of an accident that happened over SEVENTEEN years ago.

Despite the girl having expressed the will to have the plug pulled should such a situation arise, pressures from Vatican were exerted in basically every possible way, starting with the hospital where the girl was kept in (which was managed by catholic nuns), and then through legal actions towards the family, without ignoring the pro-life lunatics making their life difficult in several ways.

The religious authorities had an easy game with the politicians, as the government through the action of the Prime Minister and the Welfare Minister tried every trick in their hats to stop the plug being pulled.

You understand, with the forthcoming elections for the European Parliament, politicians are especially quick to comply with whatever request come from those guys (as Giulio Andreotti once said: God doesn't vote, but priests do)

It's so hard to say if the robed ones held any interest in the life or death of the already dead girl. They say so but what we see is they fought to impose their beliefs onto someone else.

Doesn't matter if the girl wanted to have it another way. They have The Truth, The Money and The Hospitals. And the politicians too. So they have both the heavenly blessing and the means to make the rules.

Quote from only.one.RydeR :

Plus, being a 'temporary' Catholic is not Catholic at all. If you've got a religion, you ought to follow it everytime, not during times of hardship.

Agree with you, my point being that when the most important figure of your faith makes such a sorry statement there's little to be proud about.

Quote from only.one.RydeR :

Seems I've caused quite a stirrup here..

I can't talk for others but I'm surely taking this conversation in a relaxed way. We're just talking, and I know my words won't change my mind of any fervent catholic, and I know no catholic can change my mind with just words.

There are good people inside the catholic church, but I fear most of the power is outside the grasp of those hands. Things won't change for the better any time soon.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Because you said you did not understand your holy book regarding the subject of contraception.



So I explained it. The spilling of a mans semen is murder under Catholism, because it is deemed to contain the seed of life.

That's what it says.

I had the gist of it, but you clearly explained more. Lol.

How do you know all this stuff?

Quote from SamH :

The only major difference is that the religious believe the words of the preacher and the scientific take the word of the "scientist". Neither requires any less leap of faith.. we don't HAVE time in our lives to seek proof for everything scientific we believe in.
.

Actually no. It is far from me to be entrenched in the 'scientific camp'. You see, I dont believe in the big bang (partly because the supporting white noise evidence is too circumstantion, but mostly because I have a personal hatred for Steven Hawkins, he is abussive, foul mouthed, and should not be in poor control of a motorised scooter thats capable of running yours truly over). I dont hold much store in dark matter. I have read the theories, I didnt understand them all because Steven likes to use obscure words unecessarily to make himself sound more intelligent than he really is, and I like to keep things simple.

What I do believe in is things I can understand, things I cannot understand I just disregard as being irrellevent. Things that hold no rellevence - such as the creation of the universe - I dont bother trying to answer.

What I consider arrogant is the assumption that because I believe in certain scientifical theories, and because I invest some amount of my energy periodically in learning and attempting to learn new ones, that I therefore believe in "science".

In much the same way i'll argue against Christianity as feverently as i'll dennounce Jenson Button as having a poor record in F1 and as much as i'll state categorically that I do not believe Steven Hawkins should be allowed at the controls of his wheelchair. This is because I have studied Christianity, I understand it.

The only arrogance in my post at all is the assumption that a little bit of what you just said was directed at me.

EDIT: For the record and to enforce a point: I do not 'believe' in gravity. I can prove it works, but i'm still waiting for a provable explanation [that I can understand] as to why it fails to work at the quantum level.

Quote :

How do you know all this stuff?

I read the book you worship

Quote from BigPeBe :

Our family is listed as Evangelical Lutheran Christian, as like most of Finns are.

But lets just say I'm an open minded atheist.

I'm quite possibly talking out of my arse here, but isn't there a small tax that you don't pay if you resign from the church, which can be done on tinternet?

You can't absolutely disprove anything, however it can be extremely unlikely - Russel's teapot.

Quote from NightShift :

On the contrary I think I understand too well, I have to live with the funny beliefs the catholics want to impose onto others basically every day, enjoying the privilege to live in the state that financially feeds the Vatican and its luxurious style of living using the hard-earned money of tax payers.

Want an example of that? Pope and his cronies have raised a fuss over the case of Luana Englaro, a girl that has been cerebrally dead as a result of an accident that happened over SEVENTEEN years ago.

Despite the girl having expressed the will to have the plug pulled should such a situation arise, pressures from Vatican were exerted in basically every possible way, starting with the hospital where the girl was kept in (which was managed by catholic nuns), and then through legal actions towards the family, without ignoring the pro-life lunatics making their life difficult in several ways.

The religious authorities had an easy game with the politicians, as the government through the action of the Prime Minister and the Welfare Minister tried every trick in their hats to stop the plug being pulled.

You understand, with the forthcoming elections for the European Parliament, politicians are especially quick to comply with whatever request come from those guys (as Giulio Andreotti once said: God doesn't vote, but priests do)

It's so hard to say if the robed ones held any interest in the life or death of the already dead girl. They say so but what we see is they fought to impose their beliefs onto someone else.

Doesn't matter if the girl wanted to have it another way. They have The Truth, The Money and The Hospitals. And the politicians too. So they have both the heavenly blessing and the means to make the rules.



Agree with you, my point being that when the most important figure of your faith makes such a sorry statement there's little to be proud about.



I can't talk for others but I'm surely taking this conversation in a relaxed way. We're just talking, and I know my words won't change my mind of any fervent catholic, and I know no catholic can change my mind with just words.

There are good people inside the catholic church, but I fear most of the power is outside the grasp of those hands. Things won't change for the better any time soon.

Meh, actually, I can't be bothered with my Pope or any of a part of the Church doing some things... Not good, shall we say.

Religion isn't really about the governing body of the church, but what YOUR faith is in.

Quote from only.one.RydeR :

Religion isn't really about the governing body of the church, but what YOUR faith is in.

It is when you put money in the little wooden bowl.

Quote from only.one.RydeR :

Religion isn't really about the governing body of the church, but what YOUR faith is in.

Like it or not, it's the guys who I was talking about that decide if YOU can be a catholic or not.

As a matter of fact, you cannot reject the pope's teachings as his words are infallible (this is a dogma) and he is the mouth of god on earth.

So you HAVE to believe whatever he says if you want to call yourself a catholic. Otherwise you're outside the catholic religion and you'll need to start your own christian sect.

If you wanna give it a try, I warn you, they are not kind with people who do that. It's basic marketing, they don't want to have another competitor, there enough christian flavors already. Ensure you have enough money and power to cover your ass.

Quote from Becky Rose :

The only arrogance in my post at all is the assumption that a little bit of what you just said was directed at me.

None of what I posted was directed at you, nor was I thinking about you when I posted it. Whether that amounts to arrogance on your part, you decide.

The people I AM specifically thinking of are the people that reject religion and then become devout believers in things like man-made global warming - a "scientific fact" with barely any science to support it, none of it more substantive than arguments for a "volcano god" (since you say you read that). FTR, I have no idea where you stand on MMGW.

I am a passionate atheist, allthough I don't really have the urge to convince religious people that they are wrong, unless they provoke it.

But to be honest, our history and present show that this little planet we live on would be a much happier place if there were no religion.

Quote from NightShift :

As a matter of fact, you cannot reject the pope's teachings as his words are infallible (this is a dogma) and he is the mouth of god on earth.

I've always thought that the "he is the mouth of god" was a very granduer way of saying 'omerta' myself.

Quote :

Whether that amounts to arrogance on your part, you decide.

I'm either a bit arrogant or miss-interpreted as I didnt realise you where fielding generally against a new canvas.

Anyway with regards to Hawkins I ocassionally give him the benefit of the doubt and try to read his web page, before giving up and returning to slagging him off which is more in my comfort zone.

Quote :

FTR, I have no idea where you stand on MMGW.

I forgot about your position on MMGW, indeed, you where very influential in me going off and finding out more about it. My position matches yours in that I dont think we where responsible for the unevidenced global cooling in the 70s or the unevidenced global warming. However, I do not believe in waste (I dont see spilt sperm as waste btw), I believe we are harming ourselves with the pollutants we're throwing up into the atmosphere, but the result is things like increased astmah not the planet dying. The planet has been here a few billion years i'm pretty sure it's going to outlast us. I'm all for industry being more responsible and ethical, I just dont think focusing on carbon emissions necessarily solves the real problems, because global warming isnt a problem and nor is it a fact. It's a theory, and it's unproven, and it's changed a lot in the last 40 years and still there is as much evidence for it as the bible... maybe that's why people believe it.

Quote from NightShift :

If you wanna give it a try, I warn you, they are not kind with people who do that. It's basic marketing, they don't want to have another competitor, there enough christian flavors already. Ensure you have enough money and power to cover your ass.

FWIW, in the UK the primary denomination is protestant (Church Of England) and has been for about 350 years or so. You can profess any faith you wish, and pursue it at your leisure in the UK. There is even a village in Cornwall whose official religion is on the census as "Jedi".

I realise it's a bit different in Italy, but it's also different again in different countries. Religious freedom is fairly common around the rest of Europe, both legally and culturally

Quote from 5haz :

Well, I've never seen a man walk on water or a few loaves of bread and some fish feed 5,000 people, which makes the bible story at least, seem a bit implausible.

Those are more believable than say.. Daniel and the Lion. Any Lion wouldve ate that skinny ****er.

What about Jonah and the whale... A FREAKING WHALE!

David and Goliath... A SLINGSHOT?

Noah and The Ark, The USS enterprise couldnt hold 2 of every animal, much less a wooden boat!

Talking snakes that try to convince you to eat apples? Ive never met a snake that was the least bit concerned about my nutrition.

Ah, a thread on religion. I was trying to cut back on posting in those actually.

i go to church, does that count?

Quote from ColeusRattus :

I am a passionate atheist, allthough I don't really have the urge to convince religious people that they are wrong, unless they provoke it.

But to be honest, our history and present show that this little planet we live on would be a much happier place if there were no religion.

I'm a religious non-believer, but I'm not an atheist. Commonly accepted atheism asserts anything from "there is no god" to "there probably isn't a god".

I'm an agnostic, and believe that some things are "unknowable". There may be a god, there may not be, and I don't believe there is any way for this "unknowable" to become "known".

Most atheists I've interacted with, particularly on Youtube, are what I'd call "angry people". Their reasons for their atheism revolve around reasons why they reject particular religions, rather than revolving around their own beliefs - that there is no god (probably). That's a very negative basis for a belief, and I don't think it's healthy.

Atheists that attempt to belittle the "faithful" are just preachers, preaching negativity.. but no less annoying than the bible thumpers that turn up at the door and try to prey on the sad and the weak-of-spirit when they've read in the Obituaries that there's been a bereavement in the family.

Quote from mutt107 :

i go to church, does that count?

Because you want to or because your parents drag you there?

Quote from SamH :

I realise it's a bit different in Italy, but it's also different again in different countries. Religious freedom is fairly common around the rest of Europe, both legally and culturally

I never said there's no religious freedom in Italy, we have a laicist state you know?

Despite that, if you have enough money you can affect politics and this is true of every state, including the mighty US of A (remember GW Bush right?)

Quote :

The USS enterprise couldnt hold 2 of every animal

Um, it was between 5 and 7 of each animal actually. I dunno why people think it was 2. It never was 2. I forget the exact denominations but the unclean ones was 5 and the nice cute fluffy ones was 7 of each.

A slingshot can kil, and good organisation can feed 5000 people, and the bible is so metaphorical there is no way to know if walking on water was a reference to an improvised float or whether he merely mad use of the dead sea's high salt levels to skim the surface for a few steps before plunging in. The bible is full of exagerations and metaphors, I personally don't doubt the miracles, I just doubt the specifics.

Quote from (SaM) :

He probably mistyped can't as can. Then we both agree.

Well, actually I was referring to creationism that just requires you to accept that "God made it" instead of having to understand how species evolved. It's a simple one line answer and many are just happy with it.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I dont hold much store in dark matter. I have read the theories, I didnt understand them all because Steven likes to use obscure words unecessarily to make himself sound more intelligent than he really is, and I like to keep things simple.

Offtopic a bit but isn't "dark matter" more like temporary name for something that is causing gravitational effect on space but haven't yet been clearly identified what it actually is. I'm by no means an expert on subject but wasn't it discovered after figuring out that glaxies were spinning way too fast for their mass without being spread apart due to centrifugal forces?

Quote from Becky Rose :

I'm all for industry being more responsible and ethical, I just dont think focusing on carbon emissions necessarily solves the real problems, because global warming isnt a problem and nor is it a fact. It's a theory, and it's unproven, and it's changed a lot in the last 40 years and still there is as much evidence for it as the bible... maybe that's why people believe it.

Agreed, totally. As (I think) I said, the issues of global warming and environmental responsibility need separating.

What worries me is that the scaremongering going on about global warming will ultimately result in people rejecting all things ecology. When people realise the whole GW thing's a hoax, there's a terrible risk that they'll stop being interested in promoting wind and solar power, in cleaning up the earth, re-planting rainforests and other things which we really NEED to be doing, regardless of whether or not we're complicit in global warming.

Sorry for the OT, all.

I am an Elementalist, i worship the 4 elements of life, Earth, Fire, Water and Air.

On a serious note, I am a Catholic Christian, but i am going to confess that i believe very little of that bullship.

wow this topic has become ridiculous . . . . .

Quote from NightShift :

Despite that, if you have enough money you can affect politics and this is true of every state, including the mighty US of A (remember GW Bush right?)

There have been some cases recently in the UK where politicians have been caught taking bribes to influence policy, but as soon as they've been exposed there have been enquiries and arrests. It's not a core part of politics in the UK, like it is in the US (and it really is bad, in the US, even today with Obama in office) and when it happens, it happens on the fringes. It's not accepted as normal and it's not tolerated while people wait for the system to be changed. Just FYI.

Quote from whitey6272 :

wow this topic has become ridiculous . . . . .

Nahh.. it's fun! Discussing religion and politics is always a dangerous pastime on internet forums, and mostly it's a really bad idea. As long as it doesn't descend into abuse, and everybody is respected for their beliefs (even if not shared), what's the harm?

Quote :

I am an Elementalist, i worship the 4 elements of life, Earth, Fire, Water and Air.

Archimedese was an idiot, but his work is great for games like World of Warcraft and Dungeons & Dragons... ;P

Quote :

Offtopic a bit but isn't "dark matter" more like temporary name for something that is causing gravitational effect on space but haven't yet been clearly identified what it actually is. I'm by no means an expert on subject but wasn't it discovered after figuring out that glaxies were spinning way too fast for their mass without being spread apart due to centrifugal forces?

The last I read up on it Hawkins setup an experiment in a mineshaft that he believed conclusively proved that there was matter smaller than had been previously detected. I dont remember the specifics now as this was all a long time ago, but I remember being skeptical of the experiment itself, but also very much holding the view that just because we cannot yet see smaller matter does not meen it does not exist.

Here's a wild off the wall theory just as viable, should a multi dimensional universal model indeed be correct it is entirely possible that transvergeance to higher dimensions could even be a matter of scale, much like a mandlebrot. Or we could just keep going down and down and finding ever smaller particles, but sooner or later we're going to need a very big microscope and be really bored at what we found down there.

What i'm saying is, the suggestion that 23% of the universe is missing and therefore there must be dark matter to me came over more as "duh. Of course there is more to the universe than we've descovered. Of course there is something else".

In other words, it read as Steven Hawkins saying, "I havnt actually descovered this yet, but i'd like to claim credit so that when it is descovered it has my name on it".