Hi,

You see these Arab trick videos all the time, where they're able to roll their car on two wheels (on the same side of the car) and drive it in that position, which defies all laws of LFS physics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvRYP1Q7AuI

In LFS, the tires don't have *nearly* enough grip to do something like that. Even the SLICKS are completely powerless, and they're able to give you >1.0 Gs of lateral acceleration.

(Ok, I have to give it to you most of those cars they used were pickup trucks with a high CoG, but still, they've done it with regular cars too)

So does that mean LFS has falsely led me to believe a real car is much harder to flip over than it really is? What happens if I go straight @ 60 km/hr in an empty parking lot and turn the steering wheel all the way, will a car flip over in RL?

Uhm, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ytRdH2OZUY
Just search for "lfs 2 wheels"

no it would most likely understeer. for it to flip, you'd need to either get the rims to dig into the tarmac (causing a tripping effect) or to get the car swinging left and right quickly for a pendulum style effect to get the weight to move quick enough. But it can be done, its just harder with low cars than it is with 4wds. Don't be fooled by those "arab drifter" videos, what they are doing is damn dangerous with a family style car or 4wd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mFoQtpsVQA

see the way he pendulums the weight, but at a guess he's doing maybe 40-60kmh, and it still goes over

Also the XFR is renowned for wanting to flip on the low kerbs when cornering hard, it used to be worse, but has been slightly improved with the change in CoG

Quote from morpha :

Uhm, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ytRdH2OZUY
Just search for "lfs 2 wheels"

Interesting. But it seems a special (and highly unrealistic) setup is needed to be able to do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... next_from=PL&index=11

thats a race setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKyRUbvF9Gc XRR 2 wheel action

Quote from senn :

no it would most likely understeer. for it to flip, you'd need to either get the rims to dig into the tarmac (causing a tripping effect) or to get the car swinging left and right quickly for a pendulum style effect to get the weight to move quick enough.

Cool, thanks.

I kinda wanted to use this finding to point out the dubious wheels-on-ice-effect I may sometimes feel (especially with road tires)... But I think that may be more related to the LFS' poor speed perception cues, rather than unrealistically skidding tires (i.e. they're fine).

Quote from shurcooL :

Cool, thanks.

I kinda wanted to use this finding to point out the dubious wheels-on-ice-effect I may sometimes feel (especially with road tires)... But I think that may be more related to the LFS' poor speed perception cues, rather than unrealistically skidding tires (i.e. they're fine).

Yeah LFS has to rely a bit more on the sound of skidding tyres, because you don't get that "seat of your pants" feeling you do when driving a real car, being as there are no G forces reacting on your body. It works pretty well tho

Quote from senn :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... next_from=PL&index=11

thats a race setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKyRUbvF9Gc XRR 2 wheel action

Yep, but in neither of those vids does the 2-wheel action happen on a *flat surface*. I'm highly aware of how easily some of the cars flip when you make use of the bumps on the side of the road.

Quote from senn :

Yeah LFS has to rely a bit more on the sound of skidding tyres, because you don't get that "seat of your pants" feeling you do when driving a real car, being as there are no G forces reacting on your body. It works pretty well tho

True.

I still think they could work a little on the speed perception cues/effects, as they'd greatly help with feeling your car and how it reacts.

I guess that's a complement to the physics of LFS. They are so realistic, that we're hitting the bottleneck of visual perception/feedback as what makes it seem less realistic.

Why is it that driving 100 km/hr in the game feels a lot more like 50~ km/hr, when in real life going at 120 can easily feel "too fast"? Can this be improved?

That carpark was the start of my LFS career Jumping off that bloody roof into the carpark.

Quote from shurcooL :

True.

I still think they could work a little on the speed perception cues/effects, as they'd greatly help with feeling your car and how it reacts.

I guess that's a complement to the physics of LFS. They are so realistic, that we're hitting the bottleneck of visual perception/feedback as what makes it seem less realistic.

Why is it that driving 100 km/hr in the game feels a lot more like 50~ km/hr, when in real life going at 120 can easily feel "too fast"? Can this be improved?

Well it can be quite hard, altho i have found adjusting your FOV (field of view) can help a little with this. But the perception of speed (IMHO) is also kinda related to perception of danger. At the end of the day you know in the back of your mind you're sitting at a desk, so the perception of danger is low. But in a real car at 100kmh, you're fairly focussed, being as you know a mistake could kill you. So i don't know if it could be improved, i don't usually look at my speedo too much anymore, i just try judge corners etc by feel

Quote from senn :

Well it can be quite hard ... But the perception of speed (IMHO) is also kinda related to perception of danger.

That's a valid and good point. But I think there's [much] more to it than that.

For example:
-camera shaking
-motion blur on wheels
-driver head bobbing/movement based on G-forces [already in LFS]
-wind/sound increasing as a function of speed [already in LFS I guess]

Are some techniques that can be used to increase your perception of speed. I've spent $0 and a few minutes coming up with them. Imagine what would happen if you put in some more resources into the subject, you could get some interesting results. I just find it an interesting (and very important) field, that's all.

Of course, most of those things I mentioned (camera shaking and wheel motion blur) are mostly useful for out-of-car views, not in-driver-seat view. In other words, it's not for racing. So that only makes the problem tougher.

Quote from shurcooL :

That's a valid and good point. But I think there's [much] more to it than that.

For example:
-camera shaking
-motion blur on wheels
-driver head bobbing/movement based on G-forces [already in LFS]
-wind/sound increasing as a function of speed [already in LFS I guess]

Are some techniques that can be used to increase your perception of speed. I've spent $0 and a few minutes coming up with them. Imagine what would happen if you put in some more resources into the subject, you could get some interesting results. I just find it an interesting (and very important) field, that's all.

Of course, most of those things I mentioned (camera shaking and wheel motion blur) are mostly useful for out-of-car views, not in-driver-seat view. In other words, it's not for racing. So that only makes the problem tougher.

sounds like rFactor to me...

Quote from shurcooL :

That's a valid and good point. But I think there's [much] more to it than that.

For example:
-camera shaking
-motion blur on wheels
-driver head bobbing/movement based on G-forces [already in LFS]
-wind/sound increasing as a function of speed [already in LFS I guess]

Are some techniques that can be used to increase your perception of speed. I've spent $0 and a few minutes coming up with them. Imagine what would happen if you put in some more resources into the subject, you could get some interesting results. I just find it an interesting (and very important) field, that's all.

Of course, most of those things I mentioned (camera shaking and wheel motion blur) are mostly useful for out-of-car views, not in-driver-seat view. In other words, it's not for racing. So that only makes the problem tougher.

The biggest problem with the sense of speed is that you don't have nothing at your side. I mean when you drive in real life, things you go by make you feel the speed even more, but in LFS, you don't usually have displays at your side windows, which would greatly increase the sense of speed.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

That carpark was the start of my LFS career Jumping off that bloody roof into the carpark.

Haha. I was doing things like that for .... eh .... the first 6 months of my "LFS career", too.

Quote from senn :

Also the XFR is renowned for wanting to flip on the low kerbs when cornering hard, it used to be worse, but has been slightly improved with the change in CoG

i flip the UF's more than i do the XF's...

Try to adjust 160* FOV... then even 80 feels (really)fast, but You need to get at least 3 huge screens to see something in the front . I usually play at 90* FOV, at least i sens a little speed. To get 120* i would need at least a huge LCD TV...

Some people can do it. I've seen a few (Crash Test Dummy and others) pull it off with an XFG. I've tried, but I can't do it as well as he can

FOV has a *lot* to do with the sense of speed. What tends to make games feel slower than they actually are is the fact that you're watching through such a small 'window'. Your actual, physical field of view is only about 20 degrees when you're sat back in the chair which spoils the effect somewhat.

Big monitors and high FOVs will improve things, but will distort the image as you're trying to fit ~100 degrees FOV into only about 30~ actual FOV.

If you've ever watched those police chase shows, you can see the same effect - even though the car is doing ~100mph the video looks really slow as the camera is often zoomed in, with a very small FOV.

totally agree with that one Crashgate. And i just had a look at my FOV settings too. Only 90deg, but i'm only using a 19" CRT @ 1280x1024