Quote from zeugnimod :

I guess it's hard to imagine but for you but there actually are people who stand up for their own opinion and don't blindly follow orders "just" to keep a job.

Yeah, I disagree with lots of what my bosses do and say, but I'm still in a good job that earns me money. If I sat here and disagreed about everything, I wouldn't be in a job, I wouldn't have any income, and my kid and missus wouldn't have a house to live in.

OHNOES! THE MORAL DECLINE OF THE WORLD!

Get real ...

Also, let's not take this out of context - Hamilton was probably told to "follow my lead", and "when asked about x, say that y happened." It's not exactly if somebody has asked him to murder someone, or steal their baby.

I've gone into an external meeting with my boss, and he's asked me not to mention something about something. Do I stand there and say "hang on, no, lying is wrong, I'm going to tell them the truth!" or do I say "sure thing boss..."? Seriously, what are you guys smoking?

Quote from dawguk :

Yeah, I disagree with lots of what my bosses do and say, but I'm still in a good job that earns me money. If I sat here and disagreed about everything, I wouldn't be in a job, I wouldn't have any income, and my kid and missus wouldn't have a house to live in.

OHNOES! THE MORAL DECLINE OF THE WORLD!

Get real ...

Nice try.

Quote from dawguk :

Yeah, I disagree with lots of what my bosses do and say, but I'm still in a good job that earns me money. If I sat here and disagreed about everything, I wouldn't be in a job, I wouldn't have any income, and my kid and missus wouldn't have a house to live in.

OHNOES! THE MORAL DECLINE OF THE WORLD!

Get real ...

So you would be happy following the orders of the boss, despite that you know it is wrong and the consequences of getting caught could be huge.

Quote from dawguk :

If people don't understand this, then they should plainly STFU, dig themselves out of their little cotton wool balls, and learn what the real world is all about.

I understand this because I am in the exact situation in which I may be asked to do something illegal at my job position.
I already told my boss not to spread any more information about his intentions, and that includes asking me to do something I'm unwilling to do. He seems to have understood the message pretty well.

Does it jeopardize my job? Maybe. But I'm unwilling to jeoparize my freedom to defend someone for something I didn't do. Freedom isn't replaceable when you're in a jail, and neither a job is. There's a limit to loyalty, and the last time I checked the "We were only following orders" defense didn't work too well.
If you don't understand it, well, follow your own advice.

Quote from Albieg :

I understand this because I am in the exact situation in which I may be asked to do something illegal at my job position.
I already told my boss not to spread any more information about his intentions, and that includes asking me to do something I'm unwilling to do. He seems to have understood the message pretty well.

Does it jeopardize my job? Maybe. But I'm unwilling to jeoparize my freedom to defend someone for something I didn't do. Freedom isn't replaceable when you're in a jail, and neither a job is. There's a limit to loyalty, and the last time I checked the "We were only following orders" defense didn't work too well.
If you don't understand it, well, follow your own advice.

Sounds liek if it was going to result in jail, then whatever your boss asked you to do, was CONSIDERABLY different to what Lewis Hamilton was asked to do...

You can follow your own advice then, since you're unwilling to follow your logic.

Quote from dawguk :

Yeah, I disagree with lots of what my bosses do and say, but I'm still in a good job that earns me money. If I sat here and disagreed about everything, I wouldn't be in a job, I wouldn't have any income, and my kid and missus wouldn't have a house to live in.

OHNOES! THE MORAL DECLINE OF THE WORLD!

Get real ...

Also, let's not take this out of context - Hamilton was probably told to "follow my lead", and "when asked about x, say that y happened." It's not exactly if somebody has asked him to murder someone, or steal their baby.

I've gone into an external meeting with my boss, and he's asked me not to mention something about something. Do I stand there and say "hang on, no, lying is wrong, I'm going to tell them the truth!" or do I say "sure thing boss..."? Seriously, what are you guys smoking?

So, from this text I take it you're a mindless soldier who's whoring his beliefs to the lowest(?) bidder?

If you'd have read the FIA text, you'd know that Hamilton was asked TWICE if he had let Trulli past, and INSISTED he didn't... He might not have killed someone, but may I remind you that fraud is also a punishable crime?

Quote from Albieg :

You can follow your own advice then, since you're unwilling to follow your logic.

My logic is fine, because nobody took the consequences into account when discussing this. I'm not denying that there is a line to be crossed. Example, if my boss told me to break the law, I wouldn't do it. If however, my boss told me to withhold information from someone, so that our company could get the upper hand, then I would gladly do so.

That's all that's happened. Don't lose your heads over it.

Quote from bbman :

So, from this text I take it you're a mindless soldier who's whoring his beliefs to the lowest(?) bidder?

If you'd have read the FIA text, you'd know that Hamilton was asked TWICE if he had let Trulli past, and INSISTED he didn't... He might not have killed someone, but may I remind you that fraud is also a punishable crime?

You can take from it what you like, but you're wrong, because you haven't understood the concept.

Also, fraud? Haha, that's a new one. F1 drivers getting done for fraud, because they did what their boss told them to do... how mind bogglingly fantastic.

For sure Hamilton didn't take the consequences in account when doing this. He participated, he got caught, he pays. It's a very simple logic, and you know, sometimes withholding information is a crime, or a breach of conduct.
And I didn't lose my head: I didn't tell anyone to STFU or that he doesn't know how the real world works. The people in this forum weren't born yesterday.

Edit: as for the fraud remark, do you know that people bet on F1?

Quote from Albieg :

For sure Hamilton didn't take the consequences in account when doing this. He participated, he got caught, he pays. It's a very simple logic, and you know, sometimes withholding information is a crime, or a breach of conduct.
And I didn't lose my head: I didn't tell anyone to STFU or that he doesn't know how the real world works. The people in this forum weren't born yesterday.

Edit: as for the fraud remark, do you know that people bet on F1?

+1, put much better than I could,.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

+1, put much better than I could,.

+1, I hate McLaren and Hamilton too.

/slurp

Quote from dawguk :

+1, I hate McLaren and Hamilton too.

/slurp

Oh dear, did you not read the bit were I said that if it was any other driver then I would be saying the same.

But then why let reason get in the way

Like it or not, Hamilton didn't really have an option to disagree with McLaren's statement. He's not stupid enough act against team's orders in cases like this that will always get high media cover. He plays his part, do what he's being told to do and he doesn't have to worry about his contract.

Everyone cheats but McLaren stumbled and got caught.
(What I mean is, teams will try to find loop holes and be really subtle about it if they happen to break some rule, we don't hear about it until they get caught)

Lewis Apologises:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7981273.stm

Brundles thoughts:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7981373.stm

Quote from BenjiMC :

Lewis Apologises:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7981273.stm

Brundles thoughts:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7981373.stm

Hmmm, interesting. So Hamilton was made to lie (follow team orders) or get grief from them afterwards.

Quote from BenjiMC :

Brundles thoughts:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7981373.stm

Any chance of a transcript or an easy workaround for the region block?

Quote from Crommi :

Like it or not, Hamilton didn't really have an option to disagree with McLaren's statement.

It's not necessarily so because I'm not taking for granted that McLaren told Ryan and Hamilton to lie to the stewards. Collating the available information, one could think that Ryan and Hamilton went to the meetings with the FIA officials unprepared and without a clear line of conduct established with the whole management.

Ryan could have pulled a stunt in the heat of the moment without other people at McLaren knowing, and Hamilton decided not to contradict him in front of FIA officials. That's the only justification I could find for Hamilton's remarks about being misled and for Ryan being sacked.
Otherwise I should adhere to the scapegoat conspiracy theory, but I have reason to believe that someone was really fuming at McLaren.

It's just an opinion, of course. But if you think about the little potential gain (from 4th to 3rd) and the real loss, both in points and reputation, one could hardly believe that McLaren in its entirety decided something so stupid and damaging.

Quote from DevilDare :

Hmmm, interesting. So Hamilton was made to lie (follow team orders) or get grief from them afterwards.

Now you can be proud of McLaren :runs away:

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

Now you can be proud of McLaren :runs away:

Yeah, like you were proud of Ferrari during Schumi era.....

it happens all the time, did anyone at brabham really believe that the fan on their car in sweden 78 was there as a cooling device, or that the lever in the cockpit in 82 was " a handbrake that works by lowering the suspension so the edges of the sidepods are in contact with the ground" and not a device to allow them to get around the minimum ride height rule after movable skirts were banned. similarly did ferrari really believe that alonso's car at monza really interfered with the ferrari's qualifying run when it was that far in front of it or that schumi really lost control at monaco when he caused the yellow flag to be deployed in qualifying?

no excuses for mclaren or hamilton and in fact incredably stupid of them for the sake of 1 position but no different in principal from the above incidents and many others where the team / personel have gone on record stating facts which most of the world find very hard to believe

Quote from DevilDare :

Yeah, like you were proud of Ferrari during Schumi era.....

Who told I was?

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

Who told I was?

And who told i am proud of McLaren right now?

dawguk is absolutely right.

A driver making millions of pounds a year is not going to outright contradict his superiors in the organization in a meeting in front of FIA officials. You can say you'd take a moral stand all you like, but I don't think if you were in his place you'd torpedo your superstar career over this sort of minor untruth, no matter how stupid a lie it may be.

Quote from Albieg :

Ryan could have pulled a stunt in the heat of the moment without other people at McLaren knowing, and Hamilton decided not to contradict him in front of FIA officials.

That's pretty much how it sounds here...