Quote from DevilDare :

Hmmm, interesting. So Hamilton was made to lie (follow team orders) or get grief from them afterwards.

That's what they want you to believe anyway.

Remember people, this is a damage limitation exersize and has been since they got caught out.

Think about it, two people were being accused of misleading the stewards. What is the best McLaren can hope to get out of the mess?, or rather what is the least amount of damage they can incurr?? Who do you think is worth more to McLaren??? Hamilton or his team manager?? 30 years service or not, if it comes down to loosing just an "employee" or their No.1 driver + all the sponsership he brings and potentially even their engine manufacturer too who do you really believe McLaren would be asking to "take the blame"? Because trust me when I tell you someone has to take the blame otherwise McLaren are likely to be on the receiving end of even further sanctions from the FIA. They have already made statements to that possibility.

So you choose. Pay off a long term employee with a cheque big enough to see him comfortable for a long time or your No1 driver and loose millions in the process. Remember, McLaren is a business. At the end of the day, the bottom line is all that matters.

Oh yes Shotglass, very funny, especially when taken out of context. Makes me look a bit of a spanner.

And to think, i was gonna complement you on the "Smoking Man" insinuation.

Quote from SamH :

Hamilton and/or the team letting Trulli through is learned behaviour.

I disagree with your assessment of the situation. You are assuming I think you are correct in saying the FIA are biased against McLaren or Hamilton, which I don't. You think that McLaren mistakenly letting Trulli through proves the FIA have something against them. I think it was a mistake.

Quote from amp88 :

I disagree with your assessment of the situation. You are assuming I think you are correct in saying the FIA are biased against McLaren or Hamilton, which I don't. You think that McLaren mistakenly letting Trulli through proves the FIA have something against them. I think it was a mistake.

Wasn't really referring to what you believe. Was really blending what I believe and what history has shown, and simply connecting the dots.

Listen to the transcripts people, and look at the behaviour of both Hamilton and Truli on the track.

Hamilton slows very obviously, Truli may well have passed in error or thought that hamilton had a problem so passed, who knows. Either way, Truli then practically stops in front of Hamilton, (you hear Hamilton say so in the radio communication), presumably because he's unsure as to whether he should have passed Hamilton. Hamilton even queries the team over the action, but is told to hold his position:

"
Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
LH: OK.
LH: He's slowed right down in front of me.
Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.
LH: I let him past already.
Team: OK, Lewis. That's fine. That's fine. Hold position. Hold position. "

The team was stupid.

Quote from SamH :

Wasn't really referring to what you believe. Was really blending what I believe and what history has shown, and simply connecting the dots.

Blending what you believe with what you believe history has shown, you mean.

well, the BBC said that Hamilton+Team could be excluded from the season. Now thats OTT imo.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Blending what you believe with what you believe history has shown, you mean.

The key point I made, at the front-end of this silly little wisp of existentialistic philosophising is that the behaviour of the McLaren team on the track was natural, learned behaviour based on what THEY believe. Whether or not the FIA demonstrate bias against them is wholly irrelevant. The TEAM clearly believes it to be so.

Quote from BenjiMC :

well, the BBC said that Hamilton+Team could be excluded from the season. Now thats OTT imo.

It's not OTT on the part of the BBC, they're just reporting what the FIA is telling them.

Exageration much... Can't they just let everyone race in peace... FFS he let Trulli by, big friggen whooooooop. They should've just given Trulli his 3rd place back and let Hamilton in 4th and give him a fine for wasting the stewards time. A DSQ plus possibly getting excluded from the season is a bit much.

Quote from SamH :

The TEAM clearly believes it to be so.

Evidence?

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Evidence?

Eh? Go listen to the team radio. If you can't extrapolate such a simple observation from that conversation alone, then all is lost.. seriously.

Quote from SamH :

Eh? Go listen to the team radio. If you can't extrapolate such a simple observation from that conversation alone, then all is lost.. seriously.

The team radio is evidence of the team asking Hamilton to let Trulli by. The motivation for that request is not evident in the radio transmission. You have made the assumption the team asked Hamilton to let Trulli past for fear of some action from the FIA. I made the assumption the team asked Hamilton to let Trulli past because they made a mistake. Neither of us has proof for our assumption.

edit: I'm not going to add an insult to your intelligence like you just did to Storm Cloud, because that would be childish.

I think F1 should be more like football. Give them penalties when they're racing, but when they finish, it stays like that. Any subsequent penalties - things that have to be decided upon after the race - are applied to races after. They don't go back and change the result!

Quote :

edit: I'm not going to add an insult to your intelligence like you just did to Storm Cloud, because that would be childish.

I assume that wasn't meant entirely seriously, lol

As it looks they'll have most of the McLaren team in jail or executed by the end of next week.

Though I agree that blatantly lieing in front of the stewards is something that deserves a hefty penalty. It's just that excluding them from the season is even more silly than batman surfing in yellow swimming trunks.

Vain

Quote from amp88 :

The team radio is evidence of the team asking Hamilton to let Trulli by. The motivation for that request is not evident in the radio transmission.

I disagree. Lewis's tone sounds almost panicked.. explaining what happened and why he went past. The team's all over it.. "Let's just do this by the book" etc.. it seems quite plain.

Quote from amp88 :

You have made the assumption the team asked Hamilton to let Trulli past for fear of some action from the FIA. I made the assumption the team asked Hamilton to let Trulli past because they made a mistake. Neither of us has proof for our assumption.

This is discourse. We hear things, we see things, we make assessments based on what we hear and see, and then we present our views on it. I'm not going to turn into an apologist for my own views.

Quote from amp88 :

edit: I'm not going to add an insult to your intelligence like you just did to Storm Cloud, because that would be childish.

Jesus ****ing christ. I'm bored.

Quote from Timdpr :

I think F1 should be more like football. Give them penalties when they're racing, but when they finish, it stays like that.

I agree, my enthusiasm for this endless heap o' shit squabbling and bitching has sapped me dry. I'm officially out of interest on F1 matters, and I'm out.

Quote from SamH :

This is discourse. We hear things, we see things, we make assessments based on what we hear and see, and then we present our views on it. I'm not going to turn into an apologist for my own views.

You insult Storm's intelligence because he can't come to the same conclusion as you given the information then you agree that your conclusion is based on your opinion. Maybe you should apologise for that if not for your own views...?

Just let it go. No point squabbling over this. Can we not move our attentions to the next race instead?

No because this is the australia gp thread

Quote from SamH :

Eh? Go listen to the team radio. If you can't extrapolate such a simple observation from that conversation alone, then all is lost.. seriously.

That's not fact then, not evidence. It's supposition, which is coloured by your own prejudices.

Quote from SamH :

I agree, my enthusiasm for this endless heap o' shit squabbling and bitching has sapped me dry. I'm officially out of interest on F1 matters, and I'm out.

Bet you're not. You kept saying that last year.

Quote from DejaVu :

No because this is the australia gp thread

It's over! Stop living in the past

Sam talks sense, regardless of whether or not hes a mod. Don't really see why you're going into the motives of peoples actions within a sport, if you are going to study humans that severely then I wonder what kind of joy you get out of life at all.