Hello People.

I'm aware we as Gamers, simmers - whatever, now fully expect to buy a product that is either incomplete, or full of bugs (same thing). It doesn't and couldn't happen with any other product I can think of. Can you imagine buying a new car that was broke, or incomplete, on the understanding the manufacturer may get around to fixing it in the future.

As I mentioned, this is with regards all gaming developers, no sooner have we got back from the shop with our CD / DVD and we are looking on the net for patches.

With LFS it's a little different, as we are told from the onset this is a work in progress, and as such, you are asked to pay for the privalege to be a Beta tester. I can imagine the LFS meeting at the time, "do you think they'll pay", "of course, they'll be queing to pay for unfinished software, they do it all the time".

I bought LFS from what I had read regarding the physics, and there is no doubt they are good, but for $42 then there needs to be a lot more.

I have just drove a car into another car. Not on purpose, but Hey. not a scratch. Apparently thats what happens, people all over the world are driving cars, into other cars, with no damage what so ever. Those of us out there who believe there would be damage on a catatrosphic level, are completely wrong. The physics in LFS say so.

Then there is the AI. In the world of LFS. It's normal to stick to the racing line and it doesn't matter what is in front, because your going to barge them out the way anyway. The developer should be more clear that this is a multi-player sim only. And that AI is included only for a laugh, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

We the silly shopper - habe waited long enough now for this to develope into a "proper" package, I say that as we have clearly paid proper package money.

Let us not forget, we do not even have the benefit of a CD, jewel case, printed manual - nothing.

One more thing, the installation / upgrade procedure is pathetic. As the developer is keen to charge developer package style money, they should be prepared as a minimum, to provide a good quality installer / updater. Right clicking on zip files is for freeware only.

Maybe I've had a bad day, and that is reflected above - but no, they are genuine issues I've raised, and warrant a fair / sensible response.

The simple fact is you don't 'get' LFS.

Cars DO get damaged in LFS, but it's a relatively early damage model that is missing key features that WILL be added.
LFS is sold as an online sim. It's called "Live For Speed - Online Racing Simulator". Clear as day on the homepage.

Who needs a CD - online retailing is the future, you'd better get used to it. See Steam as an example.
You can buy a printed manual, made by helpful members of the community.

Why is the installation pathetic? Just because other games add files all over the place, add needless entries into the registry, and pollute your PC doesn't mean LFS has to.

You have to understand that LFS is coded by one person, with assistance in modelling and websites from two other full-time people. Things can't happen overnight. Scavier isn't doing this 'for the money' like pretty much any other title, they're doing it for the love of it with the added bonus of money. Look at netKar. Kunos, the main programmer, has openly admitted netKar will only continue if they make enough money to bother.

Once you start to understand what is is you actually paid for (which is made clear, to me at least, on LFS.net), and when/why/how it is done then you'll start to realise what a great project it is, and what fun it is to be involved with it as it develops and matures. Writing one negative post on the forum clearly shows you aren't 'part of the community' in the usual sense. Might I suggest you stick around, read up on LFS, learn a thing or two in the process, and start to understand it before senseless bashing. The only point you've brought up that has any value as far as I can see is the AI, and Scawen has already stated that before S2 becomes 'final' we will see AI updates amonst other things, some of which will be 'boring' and some of which, like the Sauber, be exciting and surprising. It's not just a game

Those are valid criticisms but you seem to be taking a 'glass half empty' approach. If you're not able to enjoy LFS in its current state my suggestion would be to play something else until LFS is in a state more to your liking. Life's too short to get upset by things that are meant to be a pleasant diversion.

Ok, lets try and be subjective here, because no doubt the fanboys will be along soon.

Physics, while they are not a perfect representation of real world physics, they are as close as we can get, for a race sim, LFS does physics perfectly well.

AI, yes, the AI is extremely poor, I have said it a million times, untill the AI is up to scratch it should be removed, as it is now they serve no purpose at all.

This IS a proper package, the Alpha status belies its true quality, I can name you race sims out the ying-yang that are way, way more incomplete, that are fulll V1.0 releases (heck even V2,3,4 whatever).

I for one applaud the installation routine, its a clean, light routine that doesnt need any bulky uneeded installers, registery entries etc etc, I hope it contiues to be this way.

I emplore you to look past what you seem to deem as shortcomings, and delve into the meat and potatoes of LFS, online RACING, and if after you have driven a few miles more miles (you have only driven just over 200),you still come to the same conclusions I'll give you the $42 out of my own pocket.

Bottomline, you will NOT find a better online race sim PERIOD.

Dan,

Actually I don't agree in a single matter in the above post. No, I don't think so. Let's do it step-by-step:
1. @ Collisions: There is damage when two cars hit another.
2. @ AI: LFS is an online simulator. Would you be happier if the AI was removed altogether?
3. @ Package: You can download your game anytime, you can buy it everywhere, you can unlock it on any computer. I prefer this method to a sold CD with copy-protection and the like.
4. @ Installation: I like LFS because it ships in a .zip. Just extract it and it works. No registry-entries, no cumbersome installer. A .zip is the userfriendliest installation method I can think of.

I know that there are problems with LFS, and I'd like to have them fixed, but you didn't expressively mention any of them.

Vain

Quote from danowat :

AI, yes, the AI is extremely poor, I have said it a million times, untill the AI is up to scratch it should be removed, as it is now they serve no purpose at all.

I can't 100% agree with that statement. They can be fun to dodge at times.

Quote from danowat :

I for one applaud the installation routine, its a clean, light routine that doesnt need any bulky uneeded installers, registery entries etc etc, I hope it contiues to be this way.

Bottomline, you will NOT find a better online race sim PERIOD.

Dan,

I can agree with those statements.


Very good point...below!!

Vain, I agree.

But I like to add one point.

I bought LFS to have thrilling online races with the best simulated physics I can get, and not to get damaged in a realistic way. If I crash in LFS, I'll crash. My car will be broken somehow and I will not be able to drive the way I drove before the crash. Who cares, what the car looks like?


In my opinion, LFS is not a crash simulator.

I prefer the simple install method compared to other games (or sims, whatever you wanna call them). Means I can keep it on my archive drive, and if I for any reason have to reformat and install Windows, I can just create a new shortcut, unlock my licence again, and its all ready to go.

Let me ask you this, if you had to reinstall LFS every time you reinstalled windows, or got a new HD or whatever, would you prefer to backup and then move accross all the skins, setups, config file etc seperately, or would you rather just move the whole folder?

For your other points..damage exists, it could be better but as has been said the current implimentation is a quick one to get the job done. Go bounce off a few curbs at South City in the LX4 for 5 mins, you'll see it working.

Your definately looking at it from the wrong side. This isn't an EA game release, its made by a very small talented team of people, actual people that you can communicate with. You will not find it in stores, they would not even be aware of it, for this setting the online distribution system is excellent and very straight forward. Don't forget its not finished - its clearly in ALPHA status, that is what you paid for. The AI is a moot point - its an online sim, the AI has its uses but it is not the primary focus of this game.

Did the OP not play the demo before purchasing? Was he forced at gunpoint to buy LFS?

If it's not up to your high standards, go play something else. But I think you'll be pretty disappointed with the alternatives.

What the hell would I do with a CD and a carton case?
I like that it's zipped and does not install.


The most important thing for me is driving physics. Everything else comes fifth.

Unfortuantly my friend you have opened the proverbial hornets nest. I can feel the flames rising already . . . .

I think what the devsa have done here with LFS is unique and commendable. They have taken a gamble in way in that by getting the community to support them they are able to give the afformentioned community a sim that they hanker for.

As you get into LFS more (And I hope you do, give it time. It will grow on you) the good points far out weight the bad. The fact that I have only paid £24 quid for what in actuality, a perfectly servicable and usable simulator and that I am garanteed a whole lot more before I will have to pay the final installment can only be a good thing.

LFS is incomplete and it sais all that in the payment small print. You have paid your money and subscribed to an incomplete product. Prehaps more fool you for doing so as you obvioulsy didn't get the 'product' in the first place.

Some of the guys here have been here from the start, I have been here since Patch Q. And I plan to be here for Patch U, V, W, X, Y and Z. WE have seen some MASSIVE improvements in this new Patch T and it can only get better. You have subscribed to a game development, not a finished product.

Try and understand that before you rant about the unfinished'ness of it all. To me, thats part of the attraction.

All your points are easily answered if you punt around the forum for a bit. You will also see the involvment and the love that the Community already has for LFS already and it's not even finished yet.

So Go LFS. Rar, rar, rar.

Quote from Tony01Ball01 :

With LFS it's a little different, as we are told from the onset this is a work in progress, and as such, you are asked to pay for the privalege to be a Beta tester.

i was not asked to be a beta tester: i was fully aware that i was buying a three piece (stage1-3) software from the beginning. and right now i have the pleasure to play a public prerelease of one of the finest in todays computer simulations, awaiting the final release and doing thousands of miles in endless hours of fun.
maybe you have to look better before you buy next time, or have a second look, maybe you´ll be pleased then.

peace mo

Tony, you've had S2 almost as long as all the rest of us. How come you don't get it, and we do?

We waited quite a long time for this most recent patch, and the wait paid off. It came with some monster improvements, and a F1 car. I mean.. AN F1 CAR!!! Come ON man! Doesn't that crank your handle!?

You're not alone, though, Tony. Some of those people who bitched about waiting so long for a patch are now bitching about new patches daily. Still, I think you're seriously in the minority. The rest of us have grasped the concept, and that's why we're happy with both the progress to date, and the direction things are going for the future.

You can please all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but never all of the people, all of the time.

I spend a lot of time on GTL, inparticular the nordshlief, a freeware track of the highest order. I paid the same for GTL as I did for LFS, there is no comparison. I have spent a small fortune on FS2004 and all the add-ons, time etc required to get the most from them.

Both the above are examples of simulators that have extremely active on-line comunities, releasing both payware and freeware second to known. RFactor is similar, in terms of quality.

When I wrote the thread, a first I may add, as usually I'm too busy enjoying using the software to write about it (forums are essential, but there are people out there who depend on the friendship the forum affords, rather than the simulator itself), I was benchmarking LFS against the likes of GTL and FS2004, maybe that was wrong, as one man cannot compete with a developemnt house, but when the price is the same, then I'm afraid that one man has to take the critism that is also aimed at the larger developers via the forums. That's the harsh reality of life.

So let's have the online updates, patches, freeware, payware whatever - but the most essential factor in all of that, is the core product is right first, and in comparison to others out there, I still do not believe this is right. And I tried the demo, read the website and I still bought the product. Truth be known, I'd still buy it again given the choice, FWD is FWD and RWD is RWD, at least that what the force feedback tell's me, more so than LFS's competitiors - but we have been spolit, and unfortunatley it's not enough these days, not for 30'odd pound.

We aren't beta testers because LFS isn't full of bugs. It's called alpha because it's unfinished but not unpolished. Ain't it funny that LFS is called "alpha" but it still has less bugs than 90% of the commercial games in "version 1.0" status?

And LFS's core audience - sim gamers - usually aren't total newbies with computers so simply extracting some ZIP file can't be too hard job to do.

All you want is just a CD package, right? You think that wouldn't increase the prize?

Ok, lets take GTL for example.

I like GTL, but in the online environment it cannot touch LFS, its netcode and online interface pales in comparison.

So lets look at price comparison, you and I paid £30 for GTL, and for that we got the content supplied and a single "quick fix" patch, and now Simbin have dropped it, no official addon content, no more patches.

LFS is a living breathing thing, always evolving.

Dan,

Tony, you should really try longer races online, league or an single event. Those are much more fun, driving with 15-20 racers cleanly batteling from positions is the fun of LFS. You only have driven under 350 km online and I suppose on public servers, so you really havent experienced LFS like it should.

Oh, and Welcome to the forums

Quote from danowat :

Ok, lets take GTL for example.

I like GTL, but in the online environment it cannot touch LFS, its netcode and online interface pales in comparison.

So lets look at price comparison, you and I paid £30 for GTL, and for that we got the content supplied and a single "quick fix" patch, and now Simbin have dropped it, no official addon content, no more patches.

LFS is a living breathing thing, always evolving.

Dan,

I think the last line above sums it up perfectly. Ive had this game nearly two years and when Im online my pulse still races!! There is not one other game out there that can do the same thing IMO.

Look at all the people that paid for netkar that must be the most buggiest release I have ever witnessed. I have a laptop and PC with XP pro and I cannot get that game running yet I play LFS fine on them both.

When I sit and think about the future of LFS I get boosebumps - I cant wait for the day a safety car is guiding us around a soaking track

BTW X-Plane is better than FS2004 IMO

Dear thread starter,

You're in the wrong place to voice your opinion. An official online Forum for a software product is no place to criticize the software. You're 100% wrong because this is the LFS forum, and LFS is 110% perfect. God made LFS through "Scavier". The physics are just like real life, in fact all of this updating has been unneccessary as 95% of the LFS fanbase was defending LFS as a perfect sim needing no improvement since S1 went Beta. In light of this realization of LFS being perfect I suggest Scawen, Victor, and Eric just retire and maybe even bump the price up. As stated dozens of times before by Licensed S3 racers, they wont mind if the devs stop now, because they deserve the extra money anyways.

Therefore, long live LFS, stfu noob, and you're wrong for having an opinion.

Sincerely,
Aspiring LFS forum whore.


PS: I think I have finally mastered the art of licking dev nutsack (no offense to Scawen, Eric, or Victor, you guys seem cool). Now I am one of the regulars on here!

Ironic that your "comedic" post was one of the first "nasty bastard" fanboy type posts wasnt it.

Dan,

Where is my "Stab people on the face over the Internet machine (TM)" now when I need it.

Dethred, at least now you don't have any credibility anymore.

Quote from danowat :

Ironic that your "comedic" post was one of the first "nasty bastard" fanboy type posts wasnt it.

Dan,

Yep, thought about that to illepall

^^^ What he said.