Now, this is a bit of a rant.

Why the hell would anybody own a car with an automatic tranny that is available as a manual unless they have some type of physical limitation? This is something that just seems baffling to me. Why is it that in just about every country in the world other than the US, most people drive manuals? I honestly can think of no situation where an auto tranny performs better than a manual, and I sure as hell could never imagine driving a car like our CR-V as an slush box (Its quite slow and underpowered with the 5 speed it has now, it needs on help). Every single autobox I've ever driven feels very slow and like I have to put my foot to the floor to get the car to even move (While I've not driven that many cars, the autoboxes I'm talking range from Tauruses, V8 SUV's, A VW TDI, and a few Civics). I'm not honestly thinking quite right at this very moment, but I just want to gauge the opinions of others on this.

Quote from speed1 :

Why the hell would anybody own a car with an automatic tranny that is available as a manual unless they have some type of physical limitation?

If you spend a lot of your travelling in traffic (e.g. motorway jams to and from work) it's a lot easier to use an automatic than it is a manual. The decrease in the work you have to do far exceeds the added satisfaction of driving a manual when you're out of traffic. I have a car with an automatic gearbox.

Quote from amp88 :

If you spend a lot of your travelling in traffic (e.g. motorway jams to and from work) it's a lot easier to use an automatic than it is a manual. The decrease in the work you have to do far exceeds the added satisfaction of driving a manual when you're out of traffic. I have a car with an automatic gearbox.

I guess it greatly varies with personal opinion, I've been in some nasty stop and go traffic (crash blocking 50% of the lanes at rush hour in the state capitol as well as other normal city driving), and didnt mind shifting, rather it keeps me more focused on the task at hand, and it becomes quite hard to talk on a phone(I have a bit of ADD).

I guess the thing that actually angers me (rather than annoys me) is people never learning how to drive stick despite being given that option. Last week I was at a Car wash to raise money for something. Someone had a meeting to go to (it was at a church), so they just dropped their car and told us just to park it. It happened to be stick, and out of 20 people with driver's licenses (6 or 7 of whom were 35-50) I was literally the only one who know how to drive stick. Thats just sad.

1.5L 4-banger, 4-speed manual, 82HP, 2000 lbs dry

Even with 4 gears, I still shift a lot. I don't mind, though. Even in traffic, I can just stick it first gear and crawl along at idle. I might even say it's less work/tiring than an auto in heavy traffic because I don't have to hold the damn brake down all the time. My first car was a American land yacht ('94 Pontiac Bonneville) with an auto and I hated it.

BTW, the instant I read the thread title, I knew an American wrote it.

I love manual trans, you feel the car better, you control it better, it does what you want it to do!.

Am i the only one that gets annoyed with the term "stick"?

If someone ever said that to me in real life i would probably punch them.

Quote from speed1 :

I guess the thing that actually angers me (rather than annoys me) is people never learning how to drive stick despite being given that option.

You're actually angered because a lot of people can't drive a car with a manual transmission? Seriously? Don't you have more important things to worry about than what transmission is on other people's car?

Quote from amp88 :

You're actually angered because a lot of people can't drive a car with a manual transmission? Seriously? Don't you have more important things to worry about than what transmission is on other people's car?

honestly it pisses me off too.

I hate it when I talk to people who have had a license for a long time and yet have absolutely no idea how to drive a manual, its something EVERYONE who has a license should know.

People these days just don't have the skills they should to drive properly, and being able to drive a manual transmission car is one of the first things a driver should learn. I could write a whole list of things drivers should learn that they never even hear about.

I asked a friend who had just got his license some questions, one of them was if he knew what an S-turn is, something you use every time you parallel park. He had no idea what I was talking about!

I don't even have a license to drive at the moment because I don't feel like paying for a car and license only to have some idiot who can't drive rear end me and go "oh? did I hit something?"

I do plan on getting my license so I can drive my family's big turbo diesel van, but other than that, I've driven enough without a license that I can drive way better than the average canadian driver. I've done things that put even people who have been driving for years to shame.

Quote from DragonCommando :

honestly it pisses me off too.

I hate it when I talk to people who have had a license for a long time and yet have absolutely no idea how to drive a manual, its something EVERYONE who has a license should know.

If you truly hate someone who can't drive a manual then you're pathetic. Hate should be reserved for murderers and rapists, not people who can't use a manual transmission.

Quote from DragonCommando :

People these days just don't have the skills they should to drive properly, and being able to drive a manual transmission car is one of the first things a driver should learn. I could write a whole list of things drivers should learn that they never even hear about.

Why do you think learning how a manual transmission works is one of the first things every driver should learn? All automatic transmissions I know about allow a driver to force the car to stay in a chosen gear if they so wish, so saying you need a manual transmission to go up and down steep hills is just nonsense.

Quote from DragonCommando :

I asked a friend who had just got his license some questions, one of them was if he knew what an S-turn is, something you use every time you parallel park. He had no idea what I was talking about!

I don't even have a license to drive at the moment because I don't feel like paying for a car and license only to have some idiot who can't drive rear end me and go "oh? did I hit something?"

That has nothing to do with manual versus automatic transmission.

Quote from DragonCommando :

I do plan on getting my license so I can drive my family's big turbo diesel van, but other than that, I've driven enough without a license that I can drive way better than the average canadian driver. I've done things that put even people who have been driving for years to shame.

70% of people think they're better than the average driver. You can't seriously rate yourself especially if you haven't gone through the process of taking lessons and passing a driving test.

I've driven manuals most of my life 20+ driving years, only have had auto's though in the last few years. The only negatives with auto's imo are that they don't drop down quickly enough and you can't engine brake with them. The newer auto's are getting much better though, I currently have a '08 commodore which has a sport setting on the auto and I must say that it is even too aggressive in down shifting! It's practically instant as soon as you press the accelerator pedal. So the only remaining negative on a modern auto is lack of engine braking There is also an advantage to having a auto over a manual and that is left foot braking not to mention all the other afore mention positives when driving in the city...

Back when I had an auto in my SHO, I had a chip that let me program the transmission. I had upshift and downshift tables for each gear. I could plot out how and when I wanted to shift based on throttle position and wheel speed (measured at the differential). I could also modify line preassures to affect how hard or soft the trans would shift as well.

Then again, I did swap in a manual gearbox when I got serious about track days...

@ Amp88

Way to take those first two qoutes to literaly.

I said I hate it when, not I hate people who. thats completely different.
I also said people should know how to drive a manual, not know how it works, although that is useful knowlege too.

If you'd ever taken the canadian version of a "driving test" you'd also realize very quickly that any idiot with half a brain can get a license in canada. Its literaly just a multiple choice questionare before you can drive a car with a licensed driver, after that its a simple set of road tests to get a full license.

They don't teach you anything about car control or handeling emergency situations, all of those are up to you to pay for, and yet you are still allowed to drive. What do you think most canadians do? I'll tell you, they get the basic set of tests done and think they know how to drive a car.

Reality is, there are probably a very high percentage of drivers who think they know how to drive and do drive every day, but they don't have the knowlege or training to handel the car effectively. That is why there are so many accidents. They arn't realy accidents, they are inexperianced people making mestakes that sometimes cost lives.

Quote from DragonCommando :

@ Amp88

Way to take those first two qoutes to literaly.

I said I hate it when, not I hate people who. thats completely different.
I also said people should know how to drive a manual, not know how it works, although that is useful knowlege too.

I was trying to make a point. A lot of people these days say "I hate it when.." or "I hate people who..." when what they really should say is "I get irritated" or "I get frustrated when...".

So...I repeat my question. Why do you think it's essential for people to know how to use a manual transmission? The rest of your post is about driver education when it comes to emergency situations and recovering the car from slides etc which has nothing to do with the transmission.

Because driving a manual is one of the most basic things a driver needs to learn, if you can't multi-task enough to drive a manual transmission you shoulden't be behind the wheel of a car.

It also has to do with lazyness, if you look at someone who has driven an automatic all thier life, they pay alot less attention to the car and are very lazy with looking around and controlling the vehicle. Where as someone who drives a manual is looking around alot more and controlling the car alot more actively, even when driving an automatic.

There are certain standards that seem to have slipped away from the current generation of drivers, things people should just know because they are, or where, basic knowlege.

I am an information sponge, when I started learning to drive I was twelve years old and I wanted to know how to do it right. Thankfully I've had some of the best teachers, several former driving instructors.

Its actualy at the point in canada that in my opinion that little plastic card that says you can drive is completely meaningless now, a very large percentage of people who have that little plastic card can't do what it says they can.

Quote from DragonCommando :

Because driving a manual is one of the most basic things a driver needs to learn

Why? Why? Why?

Quote from DragonCommando :

if you can't multi-task enough to drive a manual transmission you shoulden't be behind the wheel of a car.

Anyone who drives (manual or automatic transmission) has to be able to multitask. I do not have an automatic transmission because I feel I can't drive a car with a manual transmission. When I bought the car I was spending the majority of my time in stop/start traffic where an automatic transmission just plain makes more sense than a manual. I'm willing to bet it's the same for a lot of people who have cars with automatic transmissions. You have to remember that most people see the car as a mode of transportation to get them from A to B. They don't care about the feel of driving a car with a manual transmission. They just want to get places reliably and cheaply.

Quote from DragonCommando :

It also has to do with lazyness, if you look at someone who has driven an automatic all thier life, they pay alot less attention to the car and are very lazy with looking around and controlling the vehicle. Where as someone who drives a manual is looking around alot more and controlling the car alot more actively, even when driving an automatic.

I disagree with you here. People who drive an automatic can actually be more attentive and have better reactions to an incident than someone driving a manual. Someone driving a manual has to take one of their hands away from the steering wheel every time they want to change gear. With only one hand on the steering wheel you can't make an emergency manoeuvre as quickly or accurately as if you had both hands on the wheel. They need to spend some of their time thinking about when they want to change gear. This becomes almost subliminal after a period of time, but the fact is the brain, the ears and possibly the eyes are engaged to some extent in thinking about when to change gears. Therefore you have less capacity to think about things like the road condition, other drivers, pedestrians, traffic signals etc. Driving a car with an automatic transmission frees the driver up more than driving a manual. How each individual driver behaves is about more than just what transmission their car has.

Quote from DragonCommando :

There are certain standards that seem to have slipped away from the current generation of drivers, things people should just know because they are, or where, basic knowlege.

THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TRANSMISSION OF THE CAR THEY'RE DRIVING. Sorry to use caps, but I've said it 3 times now and you don't seem to be taking it in.

Quote from SilverArrows77 :

I dont know how they do it in other countries but here in Australia you can even choose to sit your license as a Manual or Automatic class.

We have the same option in the UK. If you pass the test in a manual car you can drive manual or automatic. If you take it in an automatic you can only drive automatics. It makes perfect sense to me.

Quote from amp88 :

Someone driving a manual has to take one of their hands away from the steering wheel every time they want to change gear. With only one hand on the steering wheel you can't make an emergency manoeuvre as quickly or accurately as if you had both hands on the wheel. They need to spend some of their time thinking about when they want to change gear. This becomes almost subliminal after a period of time, but the fact is the brain, the ears and possibly the eyes are engaged to some extent in thinking about when to change gears. Therefore you have less capacity to think about things like the road condition, other drivers, pedestrians, traffic signals etc. Driving a car with an automatic transmission frees the driver up more than driving a manual. How each individual driver behaves is about more than just what transmission their car has.

Can't disagree more to be honest. If someone needs to think about gears so much it compromises their driving, they shouldn't be doing it at all.

I can understand what you mean with automatic freeing you to concentrate on other things, but is that really the case? You interact less with the car, the machine does a lot more work for you, I think it's easier to get distracted from the actual driving. Of course, I must admit the only manual I've driven was over 20 year old Toyota and it kept me awake having no power steering, or being a modern day air-cushion vehicle.

And why on earth someone driving along would have their other hand all the time on the gear knob, and why can't people with automatic do that? There is no reason why would anyone do that because they have certain gear box. It's a common sin of drivers to get lazy after 2 weeks getting their license and starting to drive with just one hand, but they are bunch of lazy cocks and I hope they wear out their synchros.

Quote from amp88 :

Someone driving a manual has to take one of their hands away from the steering wheel every time they want to change gear. With only one hand on the steering wheel you can't make an emergency manoeuvre as quickly or accurately as if you had both hands on the wheel. They need to spend some of their time thinking about when they want to change gear. This becomes almost subliminal after a period of time, but the fact is the brain, the ears and possibly the eyes are engaged to some extent in thinking about when to change gears. Therefore you have less capacity to think about things like the road condition, other drivers, pedestrians, traffic signals etc. Driving a car with an automatic transmission frees the driver up more than driving a manual. How each individual driver behaves is about more than just what transmission their car has.

Quote from Blackout :

Can't disagree more to be honest. If someone needs to think about gears so much it compromises their driving, they shouldn't be doing it at all.

I'm starting to wonder if people only read the first and last sentence of a large block of text. Your brain, ears, eyes and other senses can only cope with so much input. If you use a car with a manual transmission then some of that capacity is automatically taken up by deciding when to change gears. It may only be a small portion, but if it's enough to cause you to miss someone running out infront of you or to miss a red light and cause an accident then it's enough.

Quote from Blackout :

I can understand what you mean with automatic freeing you to concentrate on other things, but is that really the case? You interact less with the car, the machine does a lot more work for you, I think it's easier to get distracted from the actual driving. Of course, I must admit the only manual I've driven was over 20 year old Toyota so it kept me awake having no power steering, or being a modern day air-cushion vehicle.

I feel more in touch with the car (pardon the pun) because I'm not constantly moving to change gears. I can keep both my hands fixed on the steering wheel almost all the time, so I can feel exactly what's going on with the steering. You get a hell of a lot more feedback through the wheel than you do through a gearstick. How individual people interpret the feedback they get from the car and their hands/feet/bum is up to them, but for me the automatic provides more contact with the car.

Having read this thread, I have to say I somewhat agree with both amp88 and Dragon...

Auto's certainly make it easier in traffic, no doubt, and it can be easier to drive taking your mind off the task of changing gears. But personally I don't feel connected to the car when driving an auto box. It's just gas, brake, steering with a drone of an engine in the background.

I very much prefer driving a manual over the automatics I've driven, you feel connected with a car in a way you should be, with 3 pedals and a gear lever...

With regards to traffic, the town I live in has a bad traffic problem, usually resulting in long traffic jams, but it's fairly easy with a manual to cruise along at walking pace And does require a bit more skill to move along.. duh

And before anyone starts, I don't hate, dislike, get irritated by, annoyed by anyone Just merely stating my personal opinion.

Quote from amp88 :

I'm starting to wonder if people only read the first and last sentence of a large block of text. Your brain, ears, eyes and other senses can only cope with so much input. If you use a car with a manual transmission then some of that capacity is automatically taken up by deciding when to change gears. It may only be a small portion, but if it's enough to cause you to miss someone running out infront of you or to miss a red light and cause an accident then it's enough.

Yes, I read it. But I ignored it because if it's subliminal it shoudln't matter at all in any way or the other. I still think that if someone needs to focus on their gears so much they can't focus on the traffic, they should not drive.

We all know learning to drive a car can be a bit difficult, first you learn the clutch then you notice there are other people on the road. But as you said, it comes subliminal. Driving a car with manual doesn't automatically make you drive with one hand. I always keep both on the wheel, and considering how little time gear changes actually take, I'm not worried that I needed to swerve an accident when my hand is on the knob. Statistically speaking that is.

I consider the huge A-pillars in modern cars more of a risk for pedestrians than gear-boxes, one lady with a shopping trolley completely disappeared behind one yesterday.

Personally I don't like automatics because they don't have engine braking.

Quote :

I feel more in touch with the car (pardon the pun) because I'm not constantly moving to change gears. I can keep both my hands fixed on the steering wheel almost all the time, so I can feel exactly what's going on with the steering. You get a hell of a lot more feedback through the wheel than you do through a gearstick. How individual people interpret the feedback they get from the car and their hands/feet/bum is up to them, but for me the automatic provides more contact with the car.

Yes, the feeling trough your knob is an old clishé. It's more to do with being in control what your car does, and not letting the car deside, it's silly I know but it's about control not feeling. I agree that steering gives you more feel, especially if it's not equipped with a bad power steering system.

I think you feel you are being assaulted because you drive an automatic. Don't worry, you can still be a sensible driver on the road or a cock like the next guy, people on the internets hardly know anything.

Quote from amp88 :

You're actually angered because a lot of people can't drive a car with a manual transmission? Seriously? Don't you have more important things to worry about than what transmission is on other people's car?

It does anger me, probably not quite as literally as you think, but it does. For this exact reason, anytime I have someone in the car who I know cant drive manual, I at least offer to teach them, and I've done so now for a few friends.

Quote from amp88 :

Your brain, ears, eyes and other senses can only cope with so much input. If you use a car with a manual transmission then some of that capacity is automatically taken up by deciding when to change gears. It may only be a small portion, but if it's enough to cause you to miss someone running out infront of you or to miss a red light and cause an accident then it's enough.

While I partially agree with what you're saying, I find it quite hard to be 100% focused on what I'm doing if I'm not shifting. With an autobox, you can just push on the throt. and be on your marry way, with a manual, you need to know whats in front of you, where you are, and anticipate various things quite more so that you know where your shift points are or what gear you're in.

Quote from Blackout :

I think you feel you are being assaulted because you drive an automatic. Don't worry, you can still be a sensible driver on the road or a cock like the next guy, people on the internets hardly know anything.

Oh, I'm not assaulting him, I just disagree with his opinion. I guess I wouldnt mind driving an automatic if I lived in the middle of a city with no long, steep hills, and seldom, if ever left on anything other than highways. And it sounds like thats what he does, which is completely reasonable.

Quote from speed1 :

rant

Seriously, you are too late.

5 years ago, I would've said you'd have a point.
Nowadays, however, I can assure you automatics are REALLY good.

However, I would still choose to drive a manual rather than automatic.

I'd love an automatic. I'm sick to the back teeth with driving a manual, now. I'm middle-aged and I got the boy racer out of my system years ago, with various Opel Mantas and Renault 5 GT Turbos etc. Now, if I'm driving anywhere it's just a means to an end. At £5/gallon, all the pleasure that I used to feel in the act of driving has been sucked directly out of my ear.

If driving weren't so much of a chore perhaps I'd feel better about it, but these days (and with today's traffic) it's no fun any more. Gimme an automatic diesel with comfy seats and I'll be happy.

[edit] speed cameras don't help either