Quote from BlakjeKaas :

Finally.

Seriously, I can't name one new good car of GM

I can,

Vauxhall VXR8
Vauxhall Astra VXR
Holden Monaro
Corvette ZO6

there are loads more, good cars they just have their hands in too much to survive.

This could also mean the death of NASCAR which will be a shame because for the people who do like it and understand all the stuff about it one of the most competitive forms of motorsport will be gone.

Quote from trebor901 :

I can,

Vauxhall VXR8
Vauxhall Astra VXR
Holden Monaro
Corvette ZO6

there are loads more, good cars they just have their hands in too much to survive.

This could also mean the death of NASCAR which will be a shame because for the people who do like it and understand all the stuff about it one of the most competitive forms of motorsport will be gone.

they won't let chevy die, chevy will never die.

It's called generating your own problems. Yes, the gas guzzlers were selling well, but even in those years, it was known that the price of gas was bound to go up dramatically. They were just not proactive enough. If they had been, they would have been ready with small, efficient cars ready to be put on the market the moment the gas prices had gone up.

However, it's wrong to say that the gas guzzlers were the only problem. GM cars have basically been abysmal since 1980. Apart from a few exception, everything they made from 1980 to present time have turned out to be awful products. The only reason they kept the corp. aloft during that time is that they relied a lot on patriotism of the American people that want to buy American cars.

If I was going to buy an American car, I'd turn to Ford, which, while still having made poor decisions in the past decade, was the first of the big three to see the light, and start actually changing things. These days, there's nothing shameful about buying a Ford over a Toyota, and if I was facing the dilemma of buying a Fusion (2010) or a Camry, I don't know what I would do. Besides, they have the Fiesta coming over soon, which apart from apparently being a good car, is really good looking, both things American cars have been lacking for a while.

With GM going under, what are the chances of a few of the sub companies staying in business? I wouldn't expect Buick or Hummer to stay afloat, but what of the larger companies that may be able to turn things around with long term plan? Are there chances of them being bought by other companies?

I've never experienced anything like this. I would imagine most other countries wouldn't be too effected by this.

Just when GM was making good cars and good engines this happens. The v6 in the new camaro is very good 306HP and almost 30 mpg. Even if they are bankrupt they won't be gone forever, in fact they can come back stronger with renegotiated contracts with the unions. Toyota and Honda are able to build cars with better quality because they don't pay their workers $70 an hour to tighten lugbolts.

I was just waiting for this to happen, I knew it was comming a long time ago.

GM has been the worst out of the big north american auto makers, too many mestakes in R&D, quality control, and branch company management.

As nice as my family's 6.5L turbo diesel Express 3500 is, its a lemon, nothing but problems since it rolled off the assembly line. The only reason we still have it is because the alternative would be an overpriced used Ford Econoline 350 turbo diesel.

Why overpriced? because everyone knows that the econoline 350 is miles ahead of the Express 3500 in terms of quality and reliability.

Before we got the Chevy we had nothing but ford trucks, first an Econoline 150 cube van, and then a 150 super extended. both of them ran until they where so beat up they wheren't even road legal anymore.

We only bought the chevy because the super extended 150 got side swiped by a driver that fell asleep, and the insurance woulden't pay for the body work to make the truck road legal again.

The chevy eats fuel pump controlers, and has problems with axle seals and the vacuum pump.

My opinion on the reason for the big vehicles here vs. small vehicles in Western Europe is the population density:
http://www.theglobaleducationp ... /g-gpw-population-map.gif
The population density of Europe lends itself to a very different lifestyle than here. I live in a major population center here (the suburbs of Detroit [yes mr. rogers, love them wings]), but that is about as dense as the country-side there according to that map. Small cars are certainly logical in many situations here, but there are vast areas of the country where the type of driving/lifestyle does not favor small cars. England looks very similar to New Jersey, which is about the only environment that lends itself well to a majority of econo-boxes here.

There are also many areas of the US that are literally impossible to access by car (you need a truck or SUV). Yes, I have tried to navigate a few in a small rental car. It was not a positive experience. I'm just glad the rental company apparently never noticed the new, less monotonous paintjob among other problems.

I am, however alarmed by the amount of middle-aged mothers that feel they need a SUV for driving little suzy/jimmy two miles to school every day and for picking up the groceries.

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

My opinion on the reason for the big vehicles here vs. small vehicles in Western Europe is the population density:
http://www.theglobaleducationp ... /g-gpw-population-map.gif
The population density of Europe lends itself to a very different lifestyle than here. I live in a major population center here (the suburbs of Detroit [yes mr. rogers, love them wings]), but that is about as dense as the country-side there according to that map. Small cars are certainly logical in many situations here, but there are vast areas of the country where the type of driving/lifestyle does not favor small cars. England looks very similar to New Jersey, which is about the only environment that lends itself well to a majority of econo-boxes here.

There are also many areas of the US that are literally impossible to access by car (you need a truck or SUV). Yes, I have tried to navigate a few in a small rental car. It was not a positive experience. I'm just glad the rental company apparently never noticed the new, less monotonous paintjob among other problems.

I am, however alarmed by the amount of middle-aged mothers that feel they need a SUV for driving little suzy/jimmy two miles to school every day and for picking up the groceries.

I think the last point you made is more significant than the others. Most people don't need 4WD to get to work (even in Winter). Of the few that do, most of them only need it when there's snow/ice on the ground.

Back on topic:
GM says it'll come back stronger but unless they start making changes in their decision making process, such as canceling the future failure that is the Volt, they're still doomed.

Quote from luftrofl :

I think the last point you made is more significant than the others. Most people don't need 4WD to get to work (even in Winter). Of the few that do, most of them only need it when there's snow/ice on the ground.

The problem with your statement here, as well as the statements made by everyone myself included, is we all think in terms of our own specific needs, uses, and locations. It is easy to be in San Francisco and say "most people don't need 4WD." I can say that 2 days after trading my Toyota in for Wifey's new "car" I was missing my 4WD very much. It took me 2.5 hours to drive my 20 miles home from work. I was stuck and every hill it took me at least 3 tries to get up because I had her old car instead of her new 4WD/AWD Tribute.

This past winter, we spent at least 6 weeks where we never saw the road surface. I had to take her Tribute to work through all of that because my car wouldn't have made it, or it would have added hours onto my drive to and from work. My car would have been crawling along at 10 mph or so. In the Tribute, I happily motored along as normal at 60 mph.

The majority on this forum speak of cars in the "boy racer" sense as well as the "my car" sense rather than the car to carry the family around. When I was a kid, my brother and I were packed into the back of a Ford Escort. It was not fun being hauled around scrunched up in the back of that thing constantly. I prefer to have the room of a larger vehicle so my own kids aren't scrunched up in the back of something. Previous to the Tribute, the Altima was the family car, the wife's car left over from before we had kids. It's not enjoyable crawling down on your hands and knees trying to reach in and buckle them in the back seat. It's not enjoyable when they are not big enough to have their legs bent at the knees and their feet in the footwells so their legs are straight out and feet are pushed against your seat while you are driving.

Of course throughout the day you see folks commuting to work in SUVs and full size pickup trucks. But you have no idea what their needs are outside of the commute to work. Are they hauling a boat on the weekends? Are they hauling a camper? Are they driving up paths through the woods to reach their camping spots on the days off? Are they hauling stuff a lot? You have no idea and can not judge what other people need in a vehicle.

Most folks around here drive the 4 door trucks now (Chevy, Ford, and Dodge). They drive them because they have the need for hauling wood to heat their homes which is very common. The next day, the family is piling in and driving to the store or the mall or to the movies. I live near the river, many haul boats in which you aren't going to do that in a little 1.1 L econo-box car.

So, why do people choose to get the big Chevy and Ford over the Land Rovers and others that folks on this board always combat with? Very simply, Chevys and Fords don't cost a house mortgage to fix. They don't cost a house mortgage to insure, and they don't cost a house mortgage to purchase.

Quote from rsnake53 :

With GM going under, what are the chances of a few of the sub companies staying in business? I wouldn't expect Buick or Hummer to stay afloat, but what of the larger companies that may be able to turn things around with long term plan? Are there chances of them being bought by other companies?

I've never experienced anything like this. I would imagine most other countries wouldn't be too effected by this.

Hummer has already closed, it closed at the same time as Pontiac didnt it?

Quote from boosterfire :

It's called generating your own problems. Yes, the gas guzzlers were selling well, but even in those years, it was known that the price of gas was bound to go up dramatically. They were just not proactive enough. If they had been, they would have been ready with small, efficient cars ready to be put on the market the moment the gas prices had gone up.

GM had access to plenty of smaller, more economical and efficient cars. Opel/Vauxhall for example sell plenty, even on the American continent.

It's their own fault they haven't flooded the US marketplace with Ecotec powered Euroboxes. They'd certainly sell.

Also, are Ford actually going to be selling the Fiesta in the US now? Last I read, they decided against it due to poor projected sales.

Quote from mrodgers :

This past winter, we spent at least 6 weeks where we never saw the road surface. I had to take her Tribute to work through all of that because my car wouldn't have made it, or it would have added hours onto my drive to and from work. My car would have been crawling along at 10 mph or so. In the Tribute, I happily motored along as normal at 60 mph.

So you couldn't see the road because of adverse weather conditions, yet you still did 60mph?

You hero :rolleyes:

And about the thing about being smooshed into the back of an Escort, yup, we've all been there. 12 years old, on the way to Cornwall for the annual holiday, squeezed in between my two fat sisters in the back of a Vauxhall Cavalier. Anyway, fair enough for big families to own a biggish family wagon, but you don't need a massive juicy engine for those either, cue snapshots of the Espace and all those other horrible things.

And STROBE, lol.

IKEA has announced it's intention to take over GM and sell cars.

http://halbot.haluze.sk/images/2009-05/4935_image002.jpg

Quote from flymike91 :

Toyota and Honda are able to build cars with better quality because they don't pay their workers $70 an hour to tighten lugbolts.

Oh yeah, forgot about this since I saw it last night, but didn't look again until this morning...

Neither does GM. GM pays in worker's wages, benefits, AND retirement for all the employees collecting retirement income, $70 per hour per employee currently working. I think the actual wages were reported as $32 an hour for tightening lugnuts, pretty much on par with what Honda and Toyota does as a non-union workplace.

Quote from majod :

IKEA has announced it's intention to take over GM and sell cars.

http://halbot.haluze.sk/images/2009-05/4935_image002.jpg

that might have worked if it wasnt a picture of a VW Golf

Quote from trebor901 :

that might have worked if it wasnt a picture of a VW Golf

You have to shape it yourself.

Quote from majod :

IKEA has announced it's intention to take over GM and sell cars.

http://halbot.haluze.sk/images/2009-05/4935_image002.jpg

That would be paradise for me, just spending hours building the car from the ground up.

I did that with a bike once, but its not as time consuming, not enough parts.

Quote from mrodgers :

The problem with your statement here, as well as the statements made by everyone myself included, is we all think in terms of our own specific needs, uses, and locations. It is easy to be in San Francisco and say "most people don't need 4WD." I can say that 2 days after trading my Toyota in for Wifey's new "car" I was missing my 4WD very much. It took me 2.5 hours to drive my 20 miles home from work. I was stuck and every hill it took me at least 3 tries to get up because I had her old car instead of her new 4WD/AWD Tribute.

Oh, so because I'm from San Francisco you assume I've never been to places with harsh weather? Nice.

Most of the families that I know in Salt Lake City (in the mountains and down in the valley, where most people live) drive sedans, most of the families I know in California have SUVs. If the people I know in SLC needed trucks or SUVs, they'd have them.

Quote from DragonCommando :

That would be paradise for me, just spending hours building the car from the ground up.

I did that with a bike once, but its not as time consuming, not enough parts.

same, love the idea of building a kit car of any type

Quote from james12s :

same, love the idea of building a kit car of any type

I would probably mess up like topgear and only use half the parts.

Quote from mrodgers :

Most folks around here drive the 4 door trucks now (Chevy, Ford, and Dodge). They drive them because they have the need for hauling wood to heat their homes which is very common.

so you need a gas guzzling pointless piece of metal male lack of something or other compensation (they named it dodge ram for a reason) to burn much more fuel than necessary while collecting wood to heat your condo in whats probably the most polluting and inefficient way there is?

Quote from Luke.S :

I would probably mess up like topgear and only use half the parts.

lol

Quote :

so you need a gas guzzling pointless piece of metal male lack of something or other compensation (they named it dodge ram for a reason) to burn much more fuel than necessary while collecting wood to heat your condo in whats probably the most polluting and inefficient way there is?

wow i love the golden pedestal you stand on. I can barely see you up there!

Quote from flymike91 :

wow i love the golden pedestal you stand on. I can barely see you up there!

He is right though. Wood heatings are very inefficient but very polluting.
So, gettin something proper, like for example geothermal, would solve two problems at once.

Ah yes, heating with wood isn't very good. But they aren't spending 1.2 paychecks per month to heat their homes like I was with oil heat or 0.8 paychecks per month with propane. I was up to $1000 for a months worth of heat while all it cost my coworker was a trip into the woods in his truck to fill it up full of wood. We live in a big place, not everything is available to everyone. You do wood, oil, propane, or electric around here. Wood is free other than the work, oil up until last year was extremely cheap, propane was fairly cheap but many don't like the idea of a giant tank of highly flammable compressed gas sitting outside their home, and electric cost an arm and a leg.

Quote from flymike91 :

wow i love the golden pedestal you stand on. I can barely see you up there!

They all stand on golden pedestals around here. I mean last year, one of them stated that any car over 1600 kg was what was considered to be obnoxiously heavy and under 1600 kg was fine. Then he told me (another thread) that the car I drove was a gas guzzling bohemouth of a car, all 1300 kg worth of it. It's the internet, everyone is an expert and knows what is right for everyone else.