Actually I think Scawen has said, perhaps unofficially, that a more hardcore mode will one day be strongly considered. But it'll be optional, so don't fret that pick up and play races won't happen. It would, I suppose, be mainly used for league racing, where artifical aids (such as tyre temp overlays and mini-maps) detract from the realism. Of course certain things, like a better flag system and penalties for overtaking under yellows (which means people would be more likely to lift/brake), and even body damage affecting performance need to be done first so that people also DRIVE in a realistic fashion, which will only come with development.
If people were the sort of idiot where they are banned from all other servers so only hardcore are left they will not last long as the hardcore will give less warnings than normal servers as they want to do serious racing
I don't think this sort of stuff will make as much difference as you might think Woz. Organised racing is really the answer to having more realistic racing and races, whether that's leagues or a private server filled with reliable people.
btw I thought we might have seen you racing in the AAL now that your on this side of the pond.
btw I thought we might have seen you racing in the AAL now that your on this side of the pond.
True you can see more driving from top view, but then in cockpit, you have the advantage of "feeling" the car more from the g-force simulated movement. Like I said before though, it's all a matter of opinion what is easier and what is more realistic. Such as my next comment...
My monitor is directly behind my wheel mounted to the desk. I try to represent the monitor as the windshield, the space between the monitor and the wheel as the dash and of course, my wheel as the actual wheel. Unfortunately, I have to see the gauges and don't have any mounted on the desk, so I have to view them on the screen.
Focus straight out your windshield of the real car and take note on what you can truely see in your peripheral vision. You can not see the mirrors in the sense that you can focus on them without moving your head. The only thing I can truely focus on with my peripheral vision while looking straight out is a bit of the a-pillar, top of the dash, and over to the rearview mirror. The scene out in front of me IRL isn't "stretched" out in front as it is with the perspective you get at 90 degree FOV in LFS. With 60 degree view and the look left/right set at whatever not instant is, is the realistic view. (Of course, this is my opinion, like I said, everyone's is different).
With that all said, this is why I don't feel there needs to be a hardcore option. It is all opinions and everyone's is different. You think 90 degrees with the environment stretched out to the wrong perspective is realistic and I think 60 degrees or even smaller is realistic. And top down view only gives an advantage of seeing other's around you if the other guy doesn't use his left/right view correctly or at all. Top down view gives a handicap when talking about "feeling" what the car is doing because the g-force movement of cockpit view adds to the feeling you get with the forcefeedback system. There are plus and minuses of all.
I don't care what view you use or what controller you use, we are all in this for the good times racing with the great folks of this community. I don't think some need to be alienated from others because of the way they like their racing represented.
So are you saying that if a server is running options that you don't like then somehow the server admin is alienating you?
I find it odd that people can act like they would be deprived of some cardinal right if a server ran options that they didn't like, effectively stopping them from enjoying the type of racing that those who like the options might enjoy in that server.
If a group of hardcore race sim enthusiasts wish to compete under strict and even conditions it is logical that a non-hardcore racer wouldn't enjoy the action anyway and therefore isn't being deprived of anything that he desires. You wouldn't be missing out on a thing if hardcore servers were in the list.
LFS is a mecca for hardcore sim racers and I believe there is certainly enough support for hardcore options. There is certainly plenty of public servers out there where people can have fun and drive together, but I know I'm not alone in saying that it would be great to see some servers out there that are strictly no nonsense hardcore racing.
A variety of hardcore options that could include fuel load limiting, control tyre choice, no telepitting or reset, no text chat and other realistic race controls would enhance and add depth to online racing.
Not everyone enjoys the public server circus, I certainly don't unless I just feel like screwing around. I can't take public server racing seriously at all.
Some hardcore options would not go astray for serious racers.
I agree. I use wheels mode.
The only views that should be banned are trackside, chase and top down (forgotten what the keys are :doh
Aidswise, surely a system where drivers who use aids should have a small weight penalty or something like that would work.
I'd love to see cockpit only and all aids disabled (except autoclutch)
There are hundreds of servers.... How many of them are actually running something you don't really like?
There are hundreds of servers.... How many of them are actually running something you don't really like?
I wrote "banned" instead of banned for a reason. If I for some reason can't join a server because I am using different view I would feel like I am banned from that server.
At Last!!!!
In my first post I said
Never said mandatory .... to choose that server!!!!!
What I dream .......
.. they are all right without my influence 
Never said mandatory .... to choose that server!!!!!
What I dream .......
.. they are all right without my influence Gunn, with this comment, you have totally changed what the majority of "hardcore" discussion has been, and that is views. I totally agree with you on those points as it would be really cool to have options like that for servers. In fact it would be AWESOME! But I feel that what view you like or what controller you use has nothing to do with the racing. That is all this discussion has been about with some "driving aids" tossed in for good measure. I'm a hardcore racer just like everyone else. I'm on the servers to race and nothing more. My arguement is only about the forced view as this has nothing to do with the quality of the racing or "equalizing" the racers. There is no advantage to what view you use, or what controller you use, only disadvantages of being forced to use something you can't use.
I'm all for hardcore mode if it is stuff like Gunn has posted there. Forced setups, fuel quantity, tire selection, teleporting, pit strategies, etc. (how many actually do an actual pitstop in a forced pit 10 lap race? Everyone just comes in and pits with fuel refill set at 5% and tire change when 90% worn). These are race options and it matters not if I drive in wheels view because of framerates or I use a mouse or a joystick to steer (forced wheel controllers would allow for joysticks and gamepads). In the discussion up to your post, it is all opinions on what is realistic, fair, and advantaged/disadvantaged.
Indeed I have. Now you can put hardcore modes into perspective instead of claiming that they somehow alienate people.
I think what Gunn mentioned is the whole gist of what a hardcore simracer truly wants. Restrictions on tire choice, fuel limit, etc.... those are ALL very nice options to have for any online race, whether it be public or in a league. There are always servers that have all cars enabled and hardly any rules at all, and people are very mixed up and unrestricted there, I don't like that. You want races to become fair, but also be 'hardcore' and... interesting? Maybe that word doesn't describe what I am saying, but it leaves a wide array of possibilities for online racing in LFS. Right now, all we can do is restrict the cars, that is about it. If you REALLY want to give a more professional and 'hardcore' approach to this simulation, the best place to start is by having other variables to choose from which change the gameplay to a much higher and competitive level.
mrodgers, I can see that you really do welcome the whole 'hardcore' approach, but I really don't think it would make players refuse to play online or something. If anything, it should show people that racing is not entirely made up of your own preferences allowing racers to do things their own way (eg. custom view, tire choices, easy pitin/pitout setup testing, etc). And I support that. There is a point where people need to play by the rules in racing, and LFS is slowly reaching this point (heck we still need flag penalties). There are many racers out there that love LFS for how easy it is to get online and go racing, but for people that wish to get an experience which feels like it is controlled properly like in reallife, they could join servers with these restrictions.
This all can be an option, and I am sure if the 'hardcore' feature was for serious racers only, not every server admin would enable it. Having this option wouldn't prevent you from joining any other server, you have a choice.
mrodgers, I can see that you really do welcome the whole 'hardcore' approach, but I really don't think it would make players refuse to play online or something. If anything, it should show people that racing is not entirely made up of your own preferences allowing racers to do things their own way (eg. custom view, tire choices, easy pitin/pitout setup testing, etc). And I support that. There is a point where people need to play by the rules in racing, and LFS is slowly reaching this point (heck we still need flag penalties). There are many racers out there that love LFS for how easy it is to get online and go racing, but for people that wish to get an experience which feels like it is controlled properly like in reallife, they could join servers with these restrictions.
This all can be an option, and I am sure if the 'hardcore' feature was for serious racers only, not every server admin would enable it. Having this option wouldn't prevent you from joining any other server, you have a choice.
I can understand how a Hardcore mode would suit closed events well but my biggest, almost nauseating fear is that too many public servers running pick-up races will adopt these rules and then the community becomes fragmented further, and even those who would be willing to try everything would be forced to adjust to different rules in different servers, making things confusing and frustrating.
And there would be no way of preventing that short of linking a Hardcore mode to the password system. (ie. a password must be set before Hardcore can be enabled)
I just don't know if the public community could stand such a potential mix-up of rules. The relative continuity we have now is what makes the game so user-friendly. Get in and go. The rules are the same. Just adjust for the car and track.
And there would be no way of preventing that short of linking a Hardcore mode to the password system. (ie. a password must be set before Hardcore can be enabled)
I just don't know if the public community could stand such a potential mix-up of rules. The relative continuity we have now is what makes the game so user-friendly. Get in and go. The rules are the same. Just adjust for the car and track.
Well, I'm shure of one thing if this was to be implemented. And that is I would stop playing LFS, thats for shure.
What stops your from joining a server that doesn't have the option enabled?
Man... people keep thinking this would take over the game completely :doh: And not only that, they assume it would totally ruin everything. What is so bad about having restricted tire compounds, fuel limits, and a cockpit view???? :rolleyes:
I'm not talking about the tires or fuel limits.
Only the view. I want to join the servers I want to, and I want to play the game the way I want to. There is very few servers that have more than 10 people on it at the same time.
If this was to be implimented I would of course lose a lot of choises in the servers list. How can you say thats not going to affect the way I'm playing?
illepall
I can't understand you guys, you don't notice what kind of view I'm driving with. So whats the problem?
Only the view. I want to join the servers I want to, and I want to play the game the way I want to. There is very few servers that have more than 10 people on it at the same time.
If this was to be implimented I would of course lose a lot of choises in the servers list. How can you say thats not going to affect the way I'm playing?
illepall I can't understand you guys, you don't notice what kind of view I'm driving with. So whats the problem?
2RacingSimFan, MyBoss and others:
:doh: "Hardcore mode" will be NONdefault server OPTION. Its mainly for league races or for enthusiast racers on public who dont like public mess where everyone voting and teleporting after each T1 and then spamming etc..
There is over 300 public servers and most of them has no restrictions, coz its default.
Whats the problem with a few servers set to "hardcore"? No one force you race there.
Do you know why? Because all cars allowed etc. I never join servers with this, coz there is always some fwd, some lx6, some fxr and some noob with bf1.. more options doesnt mean less people on server, on the contrary
:doh: "Hardcore mode" will be NONdefault server OPTION. Its mainly for league races or for enthusiast racers on public who dont like public mess where everyone voting and teleporting after each T1 and then spamming etc..
There is over 300 public servers and most of them has no restrictions, coz its default.
Whats the problem with a few servers set to "hardcore"? No one force you race there.
Do you know why? Because all cars allowed etc. I never join servers with this, coz there is always some fwd, some lx6, some fxr and some noob with bf1.. more options doesnt mean less people on server, on the contrary
"No one force you to race there" True, but I'm forced to race somewhere else, and that is whats my point.
"more options doesnt mean less people on server" True, but if people set their servers to run with Cockpit mode only, then it means fewer servers for us that wants to play the game in the traditional way.
However, I do agree that there should be an option for locked tires and fuel amount.
Yeah, like locked cockpit view would stop that, and anyway. A person driving with custom view dosen't have to be less enthusiastic.
As I said, today, there is about 300 servers with no restrictions (cars, forced pit etc). Why do you think there wont be servers without forced cockpit? Most admins dont change default confings and hardcore wont be defalt..
"fewer servers for us"
its fair: 300 servers for you, none for hardcore racers, coz 280/20 is really problem for you as I see.You clearly don't see my point. I'm not thinking and I'm not saying there won't be any servers for us thats playing with custom view.
As it is today its 300 servers for everyone. If they implement the forced cockpit, lets say there will be 20 servers with that option enabled.
Of course, you don't need many brain cells to figure out there will be less racers on the default servers, because you hardcore guys will play with the new option. Right?
And because I'm driving with custom view there will be even less drivers in the default servers. Frankly I don't care about how many servers there are, if there is 300 or 5000 dosen't make any difference really, because I, and most others want to race against other drivers. What do I need 300 or 5000 empty servers for?
Huh, there is enough of racers, but are spread because no restrictions! I never join all cars servers coz of total mess there. Actually I dont join any public servers, coz Im fed-up when having great xrg battle and someone joins with fv8 and smash us 1 lap before finish. This means, that if Im on hardcore server, you wont have -1 player on public, coz I dont join public
If you want to do something for more racers online, try set more restrict servers and dont blame hardcore options.
About forced cockpit: in games like nKP you dont have chase and others views for driving and there is no problem.
I suppose that hardcore mode will be set of options, not only hardcore=1, that means, you can set all hardcore options to 1 except forced cockpit, but if someone wants forced cockpit for example for league event, why not?
If you want to do something for more racers online, try set more restrict servers and dont blame hardcore options.
About forced cockpit: in games like nKP you dont have chase and others views for driving and there is no problem.
I suppose that hardcore mode will be set of options, not only hardcore=1, that means, you can set all hardcore options to 1 except forced cockpit, but if someone wants forced cockpit for example for league event, why not?
I play with custom view, only view I ever use. It is a hood/roof cam. However, if I play in cockpit view, it isn't much of a problem, I can be just as fast if I stuck with it. My driving skill really isn't that much different, only I am able to see around me more, which is unrealistic. Having a cockpit only mode is a great idea, and people need to adjust to driving a car at any view really... and primarily cockpit view.
The other choice people make is driver's seat position. Left or right seat position is always a choice for people depending on their usual layouts where they live. However, for fast driving, people use it as an advantage to gain more weight on one side of the car. If this was restricted (one seat position), then I would be quite happy. Because this also leaves me to another point why custom views are unrealistic and used to gain an advantage. If any driver wants to switch their seat position to the left or the right, it won't matter if you use a custom view, their position is not changed.
In all, I can see why people would want to use custom view, but it leaves disadvantages and advantages on the track, and that isn't fun. Personally, I like using my custom view, but I feel it is a bit dissapointing I use such a view, while others use cockpit view and are stuck with a limited visual range. I mean, I have my custom view cranked to its highest vertically so I can see into apexes a lot better, centered in the middle of a car, and able to see the left and right side of my car so I can allow cars to get really close to me. That isn't realistic.
So if you want to go on about how you love your custom view, I can go on about mine and tell everyone how cheap it is because I gain an advantage over other drivers. I'd much rather see a server that restricts your view to cockpit view, and have EVERYONE using the same seating position so we can all race at an equal level with an equal challenge. That is one of the main principles behind this entire suggestion.
The other choice people make is driver's seat position. Left or right seat position is always a choice for people depending on their usual layouts where they live. However, for fast driving, people use it as an advantage to gain more weight on one side of the car. If this was restricted (one seat position), then I would be quite happy. Because this also leaves me to another point why custom views are unrealistic and used to gain an advantage. If any driver wants to switch their seat position to the left or the right, it won't matter if you use a custom view, their position is not changed.
In all, I can see why people would want to use custom view, but it leaves disadvantages and advantages on the track, and that isn't fun. Personally, I like using my custom view, but I feel it is a bit dissapointing I use such a view, while others use cockpit view and are stuck with a limited visual range. I mean, I have my custom view cranked to its highest vertically so I can see into apexes a lot better, centered in the middle of a car, and able to see the left and right side of my car so I can allow cars to get really close to me. That isn't realistic.
So if you want to go on about how you love your custom view, I can go on about mine and tell everyone how cheap it is because I gain an advantage over other drivers. I'd much rather see a server that restricts your view to cockpit view, and have EVERYONE using the same seating position so we can all race at an equal level with an equal challenge. That is one of the main principles behind this entire suggestion.
Yeah, but if you join a server with xfg or xrg only, then you won't experience that anyone are coming flying through your car in the FO8.
If the cockpit restriction is implemented I fear we will have two different groups. Those only joining the hardcore servers, those that plays in cockpit view, but dosen't care and play on both servers, and those like me that are forced to play on servers that dosen't have the cockpit restriction.
That will leave me with less competition.
One reason I won't change to cockpit is because I can't move the head, yes, I can turn my head to the sides. But if there is a corner coming up in my blindspot because of the roof bars on the front of the car, then I won't have a chanse to move the head so I can see the car.
Anyway, I don't see any point in discussing this topic any further. Because the devs won't implement it, I'm 99% shure of that.
What if the options where only able to be used when a server is private? This would then allow usage for leagues and serious racers. Afterall, the hardcore racers would want to race all in a group at the same competitive level.
Thats something else, but if that option ever was to be implemented the devs would implement it 100%, not 50%.
Or maybe insted of making a forced cockpit view, they could make it so if you want to change your view, you can only do it inside the car?
Atleast that way you would lose those driving with chase view, but keeping people inside the car. But they would still have some options to change view.
Or maybe insted of making a forced cockpit view, they could make it so if you want to change your view, you can only do it inside the car?
Atleast that way you would lose those driving with chase view, but keeping people inside the car. But they would still have some options to change view.
HARDCORE MODE ... please, give us ...
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