I don't know if there is a thread like this somewhere in this forum. At least I can't find it.
My suggestion is, how about making different categories to race in.
I mean
A stock car class ( None tuned engines)
A tuned car class (Mild or heavy modified engines)

Then just choose wich class u wan't to race.

Because there is 2 kind of people in this forum.
Those who want tuning and those who don't.

Then both sides would be happy.

i myself have suggested tunning before and most people seem to think it will make the game unfair is some way. i suggested the same different classes.
the argument for this is it gonna make it hard to just come online and find a game.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... mp;highlight=build+engine
here a link to a previous disccusion

Maybe I'm gonna get flamed, but those who don't like enginetuning need to cool down and see this thing from a different perspective. I have.
That is why I suggested different classes.
Then all those how like to just "tune" their suspention, gas, tire pressure and other stuff could select the stock class.
Those who like a little more race setup, could choose the racing class.
And online....can't see the problem. Select your class.

The anti-tuning people in this forum have an idea that it's all or nothing.
The world is not black or white. U can make choices...tuning or no tuning.

What does engine tuning add to this sim? So every racer takes the "fastest" setting that is found out after a week?

IMO adding engine tuning would be a waste of time for a feature that is cool for five minutes and then ends up as "just another setup option".

too me it adds alot
First its adds alot more varierty to what can be done with LFS

Drag racing now as more of a point~even though i do it i am annoyed at cars reving down the track with the same engine makes no sence.

Drifting~ becomes slightly more easier, sometimes i feel i want more power in certain areas of the power band

Racing~ i think this is where most benefit comes, it opens up a whole way to stategize a win. there would be many options u could to gain victory

to mee u need 3 things to win a race
1 good engine
2 good suspension
3 Good Driver

LFS emulates 2 & 3 but not 1

Quote :

What does engine tuning add to this sim? So every racer takes the "fastest" setting that is found out after a week?

IMO adding engine tuning would be a waste of time for a feature that is cool for five minutes and then ends up as "just another setup option".

U see this is the problem right here, even with current setups. Somepeople just refuses to learn how to make one. u have to be constantly inovating your setups and tryin different driving styles to get better. its dumb to get what works for someone else, and expect it to work for u.

some people think make setups for a given driving style, while i feel u change driving style for a given setup. i guess these sort of multiple setups and such only work when u got stiff competion.

Quote from lalathegreat :

to mee u need 3 things to win a race
1 good engine
2 good suspension
3 Good Driver

LFS emulates 2 & 3 but not 1

Actually LFS simulates engine, suspension, (rudinemtary) aero and tyres and lets you try to do number 3. Because it's not tunable doesn't mean it isn't simulated.

Quote from xaotik :

Actually LFS simulates engine, suspension, (rudinemtary) aero and tyres and lets you try to do number 3. Because it's not tunable doesn't mean it isn't simulated.

ok if u take it to such a low level, i am not sure because i havent ran across any documentation on the way LFS_engine actually works. But am guessing that powerbands are derived from the same values that LFSTweak uses. that would be a very primitive way of simulating a engine. its not bad because its serves it purpose in LFS current state. but its no way as complex the suspension or tires

EDIT
was just thinkig of another thing it adds. alot of people want a LX8 if this system in implemented that would not be a problem . u can have serveral different classes with the same car.

Yeah, I get where your coming from. What you are really asking for is modding capability - when you can mod the engine why stop at that? Mod the aero, mod the tyres, mod the suspension, edit the car models to reflect the changes... etc.

And since implementing half-baked modding in the form of just modding the engine is not the way Scawen seems to operate, then you'll get the full blown version of "mod everything" eventually.

However such modding is something that is "to come" because it's basically a whole different type of game. According to what I've read, the ability to trully mod cars like that will, possibly, be around after S3. Hang on.

The only engine tuning i see reasonable is setting the richness of the mixture. Running rich, more power, colder engine but the fuel usage gets sky high. Running a less rich mixture helps the fuel economy but gives less hp and the engne is running hotter (at least that's what i read on this forum )

Quote from Primoz :

The only engine tuning i see reasonable is setting the richness of the mixture. Running rich, more power, colder engine but the fuel usage gets sky high. Running a less rich mixture helps the fuel economy but gives less hp and the engne is running hotter (at least that's what i read on this forum )

thats generally what happens but not always. run too rich and u lose power and damage the engine. run to lean and loose power and damage engine

So u would need a engine damage simmulated i guess.

Quote :

What you are really asking for is modding capability

What do u mean by
Modding
Tunning
Build your own Engine
what your definition of each
i wanna be on same page as you have a feeling everyone has a slightly different definition which makes having a discussion hard.

Quote from xaotik :

What you are really asking for is modding capability

According to what I've read, the ability to trully mod cars like that will, possibly, be around after S3. Hang on.

I am hangin on
I suggest that they make some small enginetuning capabilities, like adjustable turbopresure
fuel mixture
Rev limitin
and so on

Yes I know...use lfstweak, but u can't use that online.

What I want is a chance to try it ingame/online.

I'm not talking about doing major changes yet.
And why not make these changes.
If they made 2 classes then there wouldn't be a problem????

Quote from cbsalkvist :

like adjustable turbopresure

Alter the HP too much, not a good idea.

Quote from cbsalkvist :

fuel mixture

Look my post above

Quote from cbsalkvist :

Rev limitin

The only rev limitng LFS does is pit speed limiter (and now TC in BF1 and FZ). If you mean to prevent overreving, for now there s no engine damage (at least no effective one) and besides, take care of your foot

Quote from cbsalkvist :

Yes I know...use lfstweak, but u can't use that online.

What I want is a chance to try it ingame/online.

It does work online.

Quote from cbsalkvist :

I'm not talking about doing major changes yet.
And why not make these changes.
If they made 2 classes then there wouldn't be a problem????

What kind of classes ae you talking about? If i understand correctly, you want to split the game into two parts, LFS standard edition (with all the usual cars) and LFS tuner edition (the usual cars, but more NFSU style). Can't see that happening, DON'T WANT that happening.

hes not asking to to split the game into two different parts.
hes basically asking for user defined classes between the cars
Example
the GTI,XRT,XRG are not in the same class of car, the can't compete which each other competivily.

Now if u where able to lets stay add a turbo to the GTI or modify its performance to bring it into the same league as the XRT they would be able to compete.

its been stated before that some people just rather not have to worry about tunning a car, so he sugested that we have class system

Eg
Class S-Stock cars
Class T250- tune;with 250 horsepower limit

Quote from Primoz :

Alter the HP too much, not a good idea.

Why?? It its my problem to handle the ekstra hp. It's up to the driver how much he can handle

Quote from Primoz :

Look my post above

Yes I have read your post... It's more work to program than adjustable turbo pressure but it could be done

Quote from Primoz :

The only rev limitng LFS does is pit speed limiter (and now TC in BF1 and FZ). If you mean to prevent overreving, for now there s no engine damage (at least no effective one) and besides, take care of your foot

U misunderstood me. I meant that u could adjust the limiter not bush a button to not overrev. And engine damage could be added. Besides it hard to take care of my foot when i'm racing with keyboard

Quote from Primoz :

It does work online.

I didn't know..

Quote from Primoz :

What kind of classes ae you talking about? If i understand correctly, you want to split the game into two parts, LFS standard edition (with all the usual cars) and LFS tuner edition (the usual cars, but more NFSU style). Can't see that happening, DON'T WANT that happening.

I don't want to compare lfs with nfsu. All I'm saying is that if u create some tuning for the engine then u have to create 2 classes to race. Those with tuned engine and those without. Simple!?
This is just to make both sides happy.

Quote from lalathegreat :

hes not asking to to split the game into two different parts.
hes basically asking for user defined classes between the cars
Example
the GTI,XRT,XRG are not in the same class of car, the can't compete which each other competivily.

Now if u where able to lets stay add a turbo to the GTI or modify its performance to bring it into the same league as the XRT they would be able to compete.

its been stated before that some people just rather not have to worry about tunning a car, so he sugested that we have class system

Eg
Class S-Stock cars
Class T250- tune;with 250 horsepower limit

U hit the spot

The XRT already has a FWD turbo car that competes with it. It's called the FXO. Even the FXO is quite hard on the tyres, with the XFG having the same power and less weight, i can see it being a tyre muncher. Not a good idea IMHO.

About the adjustable boost, most of the drivers can handle the max boost so all will use the highest one. If you had a setting from 0,6 to 0.8 bar on the XRT with let say 0.01 increments, what would you use? 0.6? I know i wouldn't. best to leave this as it is, even now he cars just aren't balanced so well, that would unbalance them even more. Running higher boost (0.1 or 0.2 bar) doesn't have much negative sideeffects. Running more or less rich mixture has. That's the difference here. That's why mixture settings would work better and even those wouldn't work the best.

LFSTweak works online, you just have to make a server with edited cars and people that want to join must have exactly tuned cars to match. That's the 'prob' here (It's good actually, otherwise there would be people with 1500 bhp FXRs running with normal 500 bhp ones. Not fair, aye?).

Quote from Primoz :

The XRT already has a FWD turbo car that competes with it. It's called the FXO.

I know but maybe I want a little ekstra kick in the XRT or maybe add a turbo to lets say the...FZ50. That's my choice. Maybe I would munch som rubber, but I like that.

Quote from Primoz :

About the adjustable boost, most of the drivers can handle the max boost so all will use the highest one. If you had a setting from 0,6 to 0.8 bar on the XRT with let say 0.01 increments, what would you use? 0.6? I know i wouldn't. best to leave this as it is, even now he cars just aren't balanced so well, that would unbalance them even more. Running higher boost (0.1 or 0.2 bar) doesn't have much negative sideeffects. Running more or less rich mixture has. That's the difference here. That's why mixture settings would work better and even those wouldn't work the best.

I don't agree. What do u do in real life??? When u r tuning engines u normaly also upgrade brakes and suspention.
That's also alright be me if u don't change turbo pressure. I would because, well i like drifting
And I think it could be fun to race lets say a stock FZ50 against an tuned XR for instance. It's a matter of choice. That is why i saying make 2 classes.
One for those who race stock and those who dosn't. As I said before simple.

Quote from Primoz :

LFSTweak works online, you just have to make a server with edited cars and people that want to join must have exactly tuned cars to match. That's the 'prob' here (It's good actually, otherwise there would be people with 1500 bhp FXRs running with normal 500 bhp ones. Not fair, aye?).

No that's not fair, but if the engine tuning are integrated in to the game then u couldn't have an 1500 bhp FXR. No it would be more realistic. If ad some more pressure and a rich mixture and adjust cams, maybe max 450 bhp. That would be a drag setup because if u added engine damage it wouldn't make 10 laps. I think lfstweak is a fun program, but it isn't realistic.

Quote from Primoz :

The XRT already has a FWD turbo car that competes with it. It's called the FXO.

Not really. Fxo is faster in each of the configurations and tracks except drag race. Some of the tracks it has even 2-3 seconds advantage illepall :weeping: :tired: :chairs: :banghead: :grumpy:

it has been discussed earlier... i think i also suggested some tuning packages... but yea doesnèt bother me anymore... like it or not, play LFS as it is

Krane taht's true, but it is a competition'. It's MEANT to be in the same class.

cbsalkvist dunno, your ideas just don't seem so good to me... Too much NFSU-ey. In real life i don't tune cars, heck, i don't even drive (i'm 17, one year to go ). But yes, you wouldn't just tune the engine and leave everything stock (well, unless the rest was good enough). And somehow making another, 'tuned' class would seem to me as ripping apart the game. It just would, don't know why really...

And tuning was suggested a lot, always unsuccesfully.It just wouldn't work. If you want turbo pressure, cam and mixture richness controled, someone will want suspension geomtry controlled (the shape of the arms, bolting points, etc.). Will then everyone design their own car? Sure, it works like this in the real life (except in Formula Ford or simmilar classes where they basically all drive the same car). But look at that. GTR for example, when Maseratis came out, they totaly owned every other car! If you have the same car for everybody (or purposely made class that has an intention of being even), the racing can be much closer. As i said, i just don't see this as a good idea...

Quote from Primoz :

Krane taht's true, but it is a competition'. It's MEANT to be in the same class...

What is the problem with making 2 classes. R u afraid your gonna race alone. As I see it, 50 % in this forum is against tuning. 50% the opposit.

Quote from Primoz :

If you want turbo pressure, cam and mixture richness controled, someone will want suspension geomtry controlled (the shape of the arms, bolting points, etc.). Will then everyone design their own car? Sure, it works like this in the real life (except in Formula Ford or simmilar classes where they basically all drive the same car). ..

No and that is why there should be 2 classes. Because u don't wanna race tuned cars.
I would like to. Try a little more with the cars in lfs.Take it up a notch. Nfsu 1 & 2 and sertanly not most wanted isn't realistic. GT4 isn't 100% realistic. LFS does a good job on that hand.
Just not on the engine side. Besides U can chance some of the suspension geometry.

Don't see the big problem in this.

Quote from -DrftMstr- :

it has been discussed earlier... i think i also suggested some tuning packages... but yea doesnèt bother me anymore... like it or not, play LFS as it is

I like LFS alot an play big time but if there no room for suggestion/changes then why make patches at all? Just play LFS with the bugs it has.
I see alot of suggestion in these threads. Many of them are quiet good.
Many of theme r about tuning...yes I have spent some time now reading.
So something tells me alot of people would like to see this happening

I like the stock engine idea, especially if that would mean also no setups. I want to race against people with the same car as me, so it's all up to the driver, not how good your setup is. At this moment, I can do good laptimes, but I have no clue if I am fast, or my setup is. And maybe it's just my setup that makes me a second slower than other drivers... I don't know. Having all the same engine would be nice to actually test your driving skills. So actually I'm anti-tuning. But I know there are people who like doing this. I know nothing about it, so I wanna race skills.

Quote :

About the adjustable boost, most of the drivers can handle the max boost so all will use the highest one. If you had a setting from 0,6 to 0.8 bar on the XRT with let say 0.01 increments, what would you use? 0.6? I know i wouldn't. best to leave this as it is, even now he cars just aren't balanced so well, that would unbalance them even more. Running higher boost (0.1 or 0.2 bar) doesn't have much negative sideeffects. Running more or less rich mixture has. That's the difference here. That's why mixture settings would work better and even those wouldn't work the best.

lets say that turbos where ajustable in LFS. Boost preausre isnt the only varible when it comes to a turbo. the size of the turbo plays a big roll 2 factors are Turbo lag and maximum boost. finding a balance between the 2 can be a chanlenge
Eg
In order to get alot of Boost u need a big turbo, biger turbo takes longer to spool Result turbo lag. and if the turbo ever kicks in real hard while exiting a corner. well u can imagine.

Now lets say u get a smaller turbo it spools up faster but it won't beable to make alot of boost.

Quote :

Running higher boost (0.1 or 0.2 bar) doesn't have much negative sideeffects.

Fuel comsumption u could build a setup engine wise and suspension which main goal was preservation, resulting in less time in the pits. could be quite competative in an endurance race

If im not mistaken there already like 5 different car classes?
Road Race TBO LRF GTR? why would u want just stock and tuning....how would u classify world records...? u no0bs who suggest this stuff think about yourself not the whole game in perspective....its a C-O-M-M-U-N-I-T-Y game not a I-W-A-N-T game....plus people that play the game probably dont know much about tuning engines....and yes u may say practice offline..but why would u want to waste time tuning your engine offline when all u have to do now is go and get a setup from a simple website..?....My point being if u want tuning play NFS...If u want realism play LFS...im done here...sorry if this is rude...lol...