Quote from morpha :

A PB is no WR. The whole bump drafting business will solve itself once LFS gets a proper damage model. IMHO bump drafting itself is not cheating, the following car can carrie more momentum into the collision, propelling the leading car forward. However, the forces involved would cause significant damage to both cars, making this not only impractical but plain suicidal in reality.

Don't know if it's really physically correct though, just kind of makes sense to me.

What?

Bump drafting does not cause "significant damage" to either of the cars. The most you will get would be a cracked bumper. Providing the cars are equal, then the car drafting would be going an extra 5 or 10mph faster at the most, and this would cause no damage at all if he was to bump the car infront.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_GvSqrov0c

Bump drafting can't possibly be considered cheating. If anything, drivers should be rewarded for being able to pull it off.

The only difference between bump drafting and drafting is the contact. Instead of wasting the energy by pulling out of the draft, the driver decides to keep the energy moving forward and transfers it to the car ahead.

If you want to be completely bull headed and tell me bump drafting is cheating, then at least the way I see things, you MUST consider drafting at all cheating. After all, you are benefiting from the car ahead of you punching a hole through the air for you...

Not cheating, but it sure is boring if you are the one left out or watching the race in the audience.

not cheating.

Quote from rsnake53 :

If you want to be completely bull headed and tell me bump drafting is cheating, then at least the way I see things, you MUST consider drafting at all cheating. After all, you are benefiting from the car ahead of you punching a hole through the air for you...

Tbh, while bump drafting certainly isn't cheating and has its place in racing, it's quite easy to see how no-contact drafting and intentional, avoidable contact is not the same thing. The biggest problems with it in LFS are latency and experience, I'd not bump draft people I can't trust to work with me.

You know whats cheating?

Scrubbing your tyres until they are a few inches smaller !!

Check some of the oval WR's

Just annoying

Why its cheating? Its more like team work, both sides trust and organising. If you didn't found a partner for BD, it doesn't mean that guys who have partners are cheaters.

The only problem I have with it is some people can get away with it lag wise and others can't. So it comes down to connection speed between people as to who can bumpdraft safely or not.
This makes races somewhat unfair. The only way to get around this is to either say you can or can't bumpdraft in your league rules.

Todd

ITS funny most people drive the oval in a open wheel car which i havent seen bump drafting in indy at all. its a closed wheel type deal. so i think bump drafting in a ss is cheating the physics/damage model of lfs for the momment. anyone can show me a vid of ss's bump drafting? as far as the gtr cars go sure its legit. but ss hmm....

I bump draft and i'm not ashamed to do it!


You can't make me feel bad, Mwuhahahaha!!!

Quote from ANAMENOONEHAD :

ITS funny most people drive the oval in a open wheel car which i havent seen bump drafting in indy at all. its a closed wheel type deal. so i think bump drafting in a ss is cheating the physics/damage model of lfs for the momment. anyone can show me a vid of ss's bump drafting? as far as the gtr cars go sure its legit. but ss hmm....

Open wheel car also designated Karts I think :P Karts do bump draft . But I agree. Larger open wheel cars with front wings shouldn't be able to bump draft but just wait till the devs integrate the detacheable wings and we'll see .

while most in this thread seem to consider bumpdrafting as not cheating, I think its unfair and un-sporting in LFS pickup racing, as the OP has said for the Aiero servers, fastest laps and sectors are no longer valid once bumpdrafting is taken into consideration.
I can understand in a team v team race it could be considered a valid tactic, as long as it dosn't break any specific leagues rules, but when racing in an open pack the only stratagy IMO should be to overtake not to push push push, often the only way some drivers further back in the pack can catch the leaders is when the leaders are battling for position, if they just bumpdraft all the time the others would never get a chance.

Thats just how I see it, I've rarely seen gentleman racers do it, I've never seen it irl with the exception of Nascar (that BTCC youtube link posted by lizardfolk isn't bumpdrafting), and if you had a long enough straight in LFS what would you expect the bumpdraft top speed to be? infinate?

SD.

Karts : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEv-YxJysxk

Although I agree with what you say SparkyDave, a strategy should never be forced, if you want to use a different strategy go for it. It's called a strategy because theres multiple choices... If 1 guy is dominating and lapping .2 or .3 of a second faster then everyone except some guy who got unlucky in qual and he's in 3rd but lapping as quickly. The gap is huge. What's the smartest thing to do? Push the guy in P2 all the way to P1 and then ditch him. I think it's just fair and if the guy who's getting passed by the bump drafters doesn't like it, he can just join the line, catch the draft and easily seperate them :P.

Anyways, this is another topic/argument that will never end because it's purely opinion lol.

Never bumpdrafted another car in lfs and never will ,for ME It would feel like gaining an unfair advantage on other who don't use it.

I would rather practice or concentrate more to get faster I think in the end that is more satisfying and more fun,bumpdrafting requires a lot of skill nd experience to do it correctly do you really want to see this practice become the norm in pickup racing?

Not me.

Naw, a legit strategy is draft on the straight, pull out, pass, lead the other car through the apex, let them draft, let them pass, and so on...

Bump drafting is 1 car pushing the other literally. It's not something to ashamed of, it just annoys people that are more devoted on good driving practices, and fair play.

The SCCA sanctioning body will revoke anyone's race license for any class for pulling that stunt in any other league other then Nascar, that is if they are caught doing it. It is in the rules, and forbidden, not to mention dangerous.

The rule covers it like this "intentional contact with intention to gain position by means of an unfair advantage." (sorry the SCCA loves to sound like lawyers, everything has to be specifically worded or people would try to get out of race infractions by some technicality lol)

Besides, people that bump draft usually are the ones blocking or crashing others, because they don't have good sportsmanship skills, if they did, they wouldn't be doing that. I'm not singling anyone out though, that is just from my own observations.

It's an ethical thing, whether you believe it or not. To me it's just the wrong way to develop good driving habits. Jus sayin.

I forgot to mention it does happen on other tracks, I saw these 3 guys, 1 in an F1, pushing a minicooper down the straights @ blackwood, then like 20 secs later a laptime that isn't even close to what it should be normally.

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

Bump drafting is 1 car pushing the other literally. It's not something to ashamed of, it just annoys people that are more devoted on good driving practices, and fair play.

The SCCA sanctioning body will revoke anyone's race license for any class for pulling that stunt in any other league other then Nascar, that is if they are caught doing it. It is in the rules, and forbidden, not to mention dangerous.

Bump drafting is the car up front only having front wing drag, the car behind that only needs to deal with rear wing drag and therefore they go faster.

The SCCA has a fair point because the NASCAR race cars have equalised bumper heights to prevent spin outs.

Don't worry I've let the FBI know and they'll be speaking to the guy in the F1 car...

Get Scawen to fix the aero modeling in LFS, and we won't have this discussion.

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

I forgot to mention it does happen on other tracks, I saw these 3 guys, 1 in an F1, pushing a minicooper down the straights @ blackwood, then like 20 secs later a laptime that isn't even close to what it should be normally.

That is when bump drafting becomes cheating when a significantly faster car is literally pushing a slow car. It becomes more pushing and less drafting.

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

The SCCA sanctioning body will revoke anyone's race license for any class for pulling that stunt in any other league other then Nascar, that is if they are caught doing it. It is in the rules, and forbidden, not to mention dangerous.

The rule covers it like this "intentional contact with intention to gain position by means of an unfair advantage." (sorry the SCCA loves to sound like lawyers, everything has to be specifically worded or people would try to get out of race infractions by some technicality lol)

I've seen touring cars bumpdraft before...BTCC specifically although I forgot who it was as I dont watch BTCC enough to be able to recite drivers by memory.

Also...again...bump drafting first STARTED from the SCCA in a touring truck race. I dont think that the SCCA completely disallowed it. Case in point it's allowed in Spec Miata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_GvSqrov0c

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

Besides, people that bump draft usually are the ones blocking or crashing others, because they don't have good sportsmanship skills, if they did, they wouldn't be doing that. I'm not singling anyone out though, that is just from my own observations.

What's wrong with blocking? Much like bumpdrafting as long as it's done in a reasonable fashion i see absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to defend your line.

I'm sorry if I dont want to be a compete sitting duck and automatically give the inside line if I'm fast enough to hold it.

Have we seriously ran out of arguments that we're all the way back to one of the first arguments in early S1 days.

Great...

One thing I think no one has mentioned yet is that even if the car behind doesn't touch the other, the one ahead still gets a small boost from the reduction in drag since the turbulence is being broken up and displaced by the car behind. It basicaly ends up being one hole in the air with two cars moving through it.

I don't know if LFS models that though, so bump drafting is probably the only way the car ahead gets a boost.

To my knowledge LFS does kinda simulate the drafting/slipstream effect. Not very well but it simulates it in a basic form and it effects both cars.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

To my knowledge LFS does kinda simulate the drafting/slipstream effect. Not very well but it simulates it in a basic form and it effects both cars.

I don't think it affects both cars. I think its as basic as the car behind loses most of the downforce and that's about it (or front downforce at least which is why when your following someone in their slipstream in a highspeed corner you'll just keep going straight.)

Thats how I think it works at least... Not 100% sure though.