I agree, Forza 2 drives very well, however, it is not simulated in the same way as LFS. In Forza 2 a car is just a box with a bunch of sliders for the developers to play around with. In LFS, the cars are constructed with suspension components. As a result, Forza 2 is an approximation of what is happening, wheras LFS is truly simulating things like wheels movement, damper movement and body roll. In layman's terms, in LFS you're seeing the simulation with your very eyes, in Forza it's just an effect. This is provable by adjusting the ride height in Forza - there is no change in the car's actual visual height, it's just a simulation parameter. In LFS, adjusting the ride height truly does raise the body, and doesn't just apply a behavior parameter. See what I'm saying?
I agree, Forza 2 drives very well, however, it is not simulated in the same way as LFS. In Forza 2 a car is just a box with a bunch of sliders for the developers to play around with. In LFS, the cars are constructed with suspension components. As a result, Forza 2 is an approximation of what is happening, wheras LFS is truly simulating things like wheels movement, damper movement and body roll. In layman's terms, in LFS you're seeing the simulation with your very eyes, in Forza it's just an effect. This is provable by adjusting the ride height in Forza - there is no change in the car's actual visual height, it's just a simulation parameter. In LFS, adjusting the ride height truly does raise the body, and doesn't just apply a behavior parameter. See what I'm saying?
What you just said is ridiculous. Your saying Forza 2 isn't as good a sim because changes only affect the way the car handles and not the way the car looks.Wrong, that is totally wrong, look it up like I said, forza 2 does realtime calculations it doesn't do presets like rFactor (if rFactor even does) Simbin did in GTR, but spreadsheets are history in coding in today's world because there is no reason for them, computers are fast enough today to do a calculation on the fly than it can be to load up a memory sector and read it in special cases.
LFS is as much as a spreadsheet reader as Forza 2 is.
Is that not the very basis for simulation? To represent? Forza is realism by approximation. Stiffen the suspension, and it only tells the car "box" to behave differently, it does not affect a "physical" component, which would then affect how the car drives. This is provable via the various anomalies in Forza's handling, such as flying cars... the effects Forza gives us, suspension chatter, body roll, etc. are just semblances of what we *think* is happening to the car. Stiffen the suspension and the chatter bumps remain the same. In a true simulation, these chatter bumps would then apply to the body, but in Forza they do not. Silky smooth.
In LFS, they do.
forza may be dumbed down, but it’s still a pretty accurate drive. especially once you turn all the aids off.
Stick a new to sims person on a wheel in even a moderately powered car with aids off and they will be off the track.
It’s all well and good having a ‘realistic’ sim, but when your very basic physics behind the tire model are flawed its worse than a dumbed down accurate model.
And i did try hard to get friends to play, we all race karts and do motorkhana, hill climbs and other motorsport so i wanted to race when no real racing was on.
None of them like lfs, all of them feel something is not right. It’s so close to being right but that slight uneasy feeling you get suddenly feels like a massive problem.
Forza is accurate to how a car should feel when on the limit and beyond. And like i said, dumbed down and accurate is better than a flawed simulation.
Stick a new to sims person on a wheel in even a moderately powered car with aids off and they will be off the track.
It’s all well and good having a ‘realistic’ sim, but when your very basic physics behind the tire model are flawed its worse than a dumbed down accurate model.
And i did try hard to get friends to play, we all race karts and do motorkhana, hill climbs and other motorsport so i wanted to race when no real racing was on.
None of them like lfs, all of them feel something is not right. It’s so close to being right but that slight uneasy feeling you get suddenly feels like a massive problem.
Forza is accurate to how a car should feel when on the limit and beyond. And like i said, dumbed down and accurate is better than a flawed simulation.
While I am not a LFS fanboy, I think saying it is a flawed simulation is wrong. A flaw makes something not perfect and while LFS isn't a perfect sim (cold tyre physics, damage etc), Forza 2 is just as flawed in that it is dumbed down and so isn't perfect either. Forza 2 is a final game where lfs is still in development so who knows maybe lfs will be come perfect one day. I wait for forza 3 though to see what improvements have been made, all I cans ay for now is I am looking forward to it.
Well, it drives nice to me. All the inputs respond as they should (except straight line braking but it's not a big deal). The cars I've driven at the limit on the track feel as they should. Though the laptimes are quite a few seconds too quick.
Personally I can't wait to try Forza 3. I'm still playing Forza 2 almost daily, if only for a few quick laps.
lfs can never become perfect
, we will need G-ForceContact Patch
If G-Force = Perfect, then LFS or FM3 showcased with a motion simulator means they are perfect?
What is simulated and waht is not is very different in many "sims" LFS showcases how well it simulates a car. And it is clear by it's consistency. In any view of the car it is simulated, IE add a driver, or a passenger or gas and it *REACTS* correctly. When a vehicle is not moving even in a UI screen, then who knows waht is being simulated and modeled and when. As noted, if suspension geometries are not modeled and calculated, who cares about the tire model. All the angles, forces, interactions, compressions, etc can ensure a tire slip model against various surfaces is correct in all situations, not just a given tire at a perfect right angle to a perfect flat horizontal surface.
I can't wait to see a sim where I can see the contact patch and what surface any portion of that contact patch is interacting with. Water in the middle and ice on the rightside and mud on the leftside how does that effect handling, or the asphalt and concrete variations.. so much left to do in driving sims.
please make it shorter and i might read it all =P
ok, the thing isn't flawed, but an important part of the equation has a flaw.
and its not just cold tires, its hot tires, tires spinning in 3rd gear in a car with power that in real life would only chirp into second, the transition between loss of grip and retaining grip, tire temperatures, drastic loss of grip on worn tires. i could go on about the tires, and they are all little things, but together are a flaw you really cant overlook and when you drive a vehicke on the track in real life on a regular basis those little flaws feel like a big deal when you come back to having some fun on a computer.
forza is by no means perfect, it is dumbed down, but like i said the feeling of realism is there because it reacts how you expect it too. you can slide a car like in real life and the car regains grip during a slide like it is supposed too. thats a big deal and way more important to me that an accurate damage model. i try not to crash so modeling how a car should drive after i do is kind of pointless. yes it is fun now and then to just push way to hard and see what the car will look like when you barrel roll through the sand pit, but i'm not going to contiune to race in real life after doing that so i probably wont try on a simluation either.
for me forza just feels more realstic, it may not be a true sim, but turn all the aids off and it provides a suffient challenge i can enjoy and behave in a realistic fashion. it may not have all the under the bonnet stuff going on, but its the end product i'm judging.
i hope the next update is taking so long because the maybe the sirrico didnt drive like it did in real life and those problems needed to be addressed.
cross fingers, i like live for speed, i just hope it can keep up with the new stuff that is coming out. it had been cutting edge when it came out, but its now looking dated.
Looks like Need For Speed wants in on some of this tire deformation action:
from an interview about SHIFT:
"...by far the most advanced and realistic physics engine of any of the mainstream racing games. ... Things like tire deformation based on g-forces, tire pressures, rubber thickness, which only the most diehard sim fans will notice, but we know it's there.
...
...when the tire sidewalls flex under load in a corner, it minutely changes the shape and location of the tire's contact patch, which in turn changes how the tire grips the tarmac as it strains to keep hold."
So says Ian Bell of Slightly Mad Studios, the people behind SHIFT.
I really doubt it will be better than LFS, but I think it's worth a look. or at least a raised eyebrow.
from an interview about SHIFT:
"...by far the most advanced and realistic physics engine of any of the mainstream racing games. ... Things like tire deformation based on g-forces, tire pressures, rubber thickness, which only the most diehard sim fans will notice, but we know it's there.
...
...when the tire sidewalls flex under load in a corner, it minutely changes the shape and location of the tire's contact patch, which in turn changes how the tire grips the tarmac as it strains to keep hold."
So says Ian Bell of Slightly Mad Studios, the people behind SHIFT.
I really doubt it will be better than LFS, but I think it's worth a look. or at least a raised eyebrow.
once it's out, only the people playing it will know.
it's one thing saying you can shit thunder, but it's another thing prooving it.
You're absolutely right, but good sim or not, I'll buy it and (if it's good) probably make a post or two about it. I've been playing NFS since 1997 (it was much more fun back then), and will continue to do so - for fun, not realism. That's what LFS is for.
I suspect SHIFT will either be a suprisingly good sim or a "pretend-sim" like Grid. Either way, I expect it to be an enjoyable game. I'm hoping it turns out as good as they say. If it is that good then GT and Forza-if not LFS- will have some new competition, for a while anyway. The next NFS may go back to arcade, who knows?
what i am trying to say is, LFS tyre physics are like Man UTD. They may not be top all the time, but they are the are the best overall. shift may be on top now (or close to) but LFS have been top of the game for alot longer and will remain there. I'm not a fanboy, i play all games and LFS has the best physics.
It's that simple really. yes, winning one game is good, but LFS has ticked all of the boxes for so long now that every other racing sim feels less.
But, as log as you don't expect LFS from NFS, you should be OK.
It's that simple really. yes, winning one game is good, but LFS has ticked all of the boxes for so long now that every other racing sim feels less.
But, as log as you don't expect LFS from NFS, you should be OK.
Ah, so the game will include hoopy casinos? (Hopefully not too obscure...)
I didn't mean to suggest I think it will be better than LFS. I don't think it will be, but if it's as "hardcore" as they claim, it should be good enough to hold it's own in the world of sim racing.
The "Need For Speed" name will probably prevent most sim racers from paying any attention, except for those like me who like to play NFS anyway.
sorry, I don't get it.
I'm just glad that people finally start to realise tyres aren't made of concrete...
But many tires are made by the same folks who make concrete.. Live long err Ling Long
I think it is a good idea to look at all the major sims four years ago and this year.
Who has made the most progress? Who has addressed the desires of their respective communities most effectively?
Where are we headed? FM3 is not the be all and end all, but it sure will keep people busy until FM4 ;P
Who has made the most progress? Who has addressed the desires of their respective communities most effectively?
Where are we headed? FM3 is not the be all and end all, but it sure will keep people busy until FM4 ;P
I've only glanced over this thread, but would I be the first to conspire that Scawen is secretly on the Forza 3 development team, coding tyre deformation? Under an assumed name of course. 
He is the only person in the world to have done it previously, and Microsoft would have a hell of a budget to pay fo him... It might also explain the dramatic slowing of LFS development in recent years.
Bring out your tin foil hats!
He is the only person in the world to have done it previously, and Microsoft would have a hell of a budget to pay fo him... It might also explain the dramatic slowing of LFS development in recent years.
Bring out your tin foil hats!
A Honda Civic Type-R RWD really exists, it is even for sale... (is built for European Rallycross Class, for 2 litre Gr.A cars with RWD)
click here
Ian Bell co-wrote Elite, which used procedural functions to "randomly" generate descriptions of various star systems. Having "hoopy casinos" were something planets could be notable for.
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Tire Deformation Leader
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