It takes a lot of time to get the feeling in the left foot though. People who have grown up using manual cars normally only use their left foot to operate the clutch, so they don't have a lot of feeling for pushing with their left foot. Starting off learning to left foot brake in a road car can be quite difficult, but the worst you'll normally do is to use too much brake pressure and cause a lockup or the ABS to trigger. If you do the same in a racing car chances are you'll lock the brakes and damage a tyre. For people who don't have a lot of track time it could be an expensive lesson where the costs outweigh the benefits.
just master heel and toe, or do what i did and take it a step further, master heel and toe double clutch. you cant get a worse lap time 
you will either have to use a clutch because of a car needing it to shift (i am refering to left foot braking), or you will not have a need of blipping the throttle with an f1 car eliminating the whole point of heel and toe
so just take a day and do nothing but practice heel and toe [double clutch] and master it
you will either have to use a clutch because of a car needing it to shift (i am refering to left foot braking), or you will not have a need of blipping the throttle with an f1 car eliminating the whole point of heel and toe so just take a day and do nothing but practice heel and toe [double clutch] and master it
Go kart racing.
I know Tristan doesn't want to become a professional, so it's a moot point anyway. I'll drop it.
Ah okay. I just can't see the difference between letting the engine slow down in the gear you were just in, or dropping a few gears and revving its head off if fuel injection cuts the fuel flow
I mean you're off the throttle and on the brake in both cases. The only difference is a few thousand rpm. I just can't see how it saves fuel while the engines working harder
Edit: Don't reply; I know how it works now
I adjusted my rear brakes last week. Where the shoes had worn down there was a massive gap between them and the drum. It meant I had a lot of peddle travel. Brakes feel much better now but the different biting point for the brakes has screwed my heel-toe completely. Nearly went through the windscreen the first time I tried it. 
Gonna take a few weeks to get used to.
Gonna take a few weeks to get used to.
I don't know if it's the same as the Lola. Our's is the pre-sequential Hewland Mk5a 'box (in a Dallara magnesium casing). In 2002 they moved to a stick sequential 'box.
I don't left foot brake. For starters I'm used to right foot braking and am not skilled enough to change without costing way more time per lap, and I can't afford the testing to get used to it away from race meetings. Secondly I make far too many mistakes and find neutrals periodically, and then it's useful to have a foot spare to hit the clutch and help me find a gear.
Thirdly, as with the mistakes, I do spin now and again, and being able to hit the clutch and not stall is a bigger advantage than finding the tenth of a second I might gain from left foot braking.
Silly, non-professional reasons. But there they are
When I do use the clutch (which was most of the time in the Reynard), I heel'n'toe. When I don't (which is most of the time in the Dallara) I just select the gear I want and it goes in without locking wheels or doing anything horrible to the 'box internals.
You can't heel and toe AND double clutch.. Double clutch is a technique, and heel & toe is basically an addition to that technique. I don't see how there's any heel and toe without the double clutching?
I don't double declutch very often at all... But I heel and toe a lot. You can do either without the other, or you can do them together.
LFS' H-Gate goes from the gear your in, to neutral, then to the gear you want - wheres sequential goes straight to the gear you want (even if your using paddles in an h-gate car).
That means it's impossible to shift quicker than a paddle flicker...
There are many ways to balance your braking in 100% braking area or at corner entry. In a down shift, how you release the clutch makes much different. IRL, some drivers slowly release the clutch instead of doing H&T. It's the same for some Moto GP bikers. Skipping gears changes your rpm zone in the braking area and reduces engine braking torque. Shift a bit later also reduces engine braking torque. When you H&T, no one forces you to throttle up the engine to the exactly "right" rpm. You can give less throttle than a typical H&T, and than you get a effect between the 2 ways talked above. You can even keep a little throttle under braking to change your brake balance.
Engine braking doesn't only reduces the risk of overcooking the brakes. It helps you to control your brake balance and keep your rpm in the best zone.
Remember, just like the whole vehicle, the engine takes time (and distance) to slow down after reaching the brake point. If you always try to shift as few as possible (in most cases, one shift from braking point gear to apex gear), rpm will change a lot, so does engine braking torque. You are actualy breaking your brake balance, not protecting it ! If you really want to do so, try to use throttle to reduce engine braking torque at high rpm. Many drivers, including me, do this in RL. I simply try this to make fewer shifts as I'm a lazy driver ~
Engine braking doesn't only reduces the risk of overcooking the brakes. It helps you to control your brake balance and keep your rpm in the best zone.
Remember, just like the whole vehicle, the engine takes time (and distance) to slow down after reaching the brake point. If you always try to shift as few as possible (in most cases, one shift from braking point gear to apex gear), rpm will change a lot, so does engine braking torque. You are actualy breaking your brake balance, not protecting it ! If you really want to do so, try to use throttle to reduce engine braking torque at high rpm. Many drivers, including me, do this in RL. I simply try this to make fewer shifts as I'm a lazy driver ~
Not really. When in sequential mode with auto clutch on, the clutch work will also take time. If you can do the clutch work faster, you may shift faster.
I strongly suggest doing this with Quick Macro or something ~ ~ ~
is there any way in lfs to have your brakes get too hot?
Not yet, but it is on Scawen's todo list.
well, its also on scawen's to do list to travel to the moon i bet
What kind of daft comment is that? Are you trying to look stupid?
What I meant was, I really do not see the idea of double clutching when the LFS H-gear, as mentioned, goes through neutral on the way to any other gear. Doesn't matter if you're using paddles or whatever for it.
Thus, you gain nothing by actually releasing the clutch in neutral (which is of course only possible when using an h-shifter irl too). Heel and toe accomplishes the same, without a clutch lift..
If what you're looking for is not braking and shifting down, but simply shifting down, rev-matching with a little blip on the downshift is enough.
Provided the part in brackets is true (which would have to be changed) it does NOT necessarily mean that gear-neutral-gear is slower than gear-gear.
Using an H-shifter, changing a gear takes these steps:
1 - Push clutch-pedal.
2 - Move gear-lever.
3 - Let out clutch.
So the time it takes from step 1 to step 3 determines your shift time. It doesn't matter how many actions LFS actually does in step 2. In the moment your lever is in gear, the gear's in.
So perhaps semi-automated-h-box (it is NOT sequential) leaves out the neutral, but that's not the only component of shifting.
That's pretty much like saying car A must be faster around the track because it is faster than B around one corner.
edit: ooooh, didn't see Keling's comment. Yeah, short and simple.
no, i was in the sarcastic mood
Heel-to-toe downshifts do serve a purpose in both racing and drifting. Anyone that has driven a car with a non-synchromesh transmission has to do it, when they go to a lower gear, they have to hit the throttle so the engine rpm matches the tranny rpm, or you'll grind the gears.
example: 4th gear @ 2,000 rpms = 3rd gear @ 4,000 rpm, so when you downshift, you have to tap the gas or "blip" the throttle so it matches when you put it into gear. Most passengers cars have synchromesh trannies, you can put it into any gear @ almost any rpm except reverse.
Now add braking to the equation. In order to maintain momentum of the car, and also to help setup the car to take the corner properly, you have to get the car in the right gear for the approaching turn. In racing you don't want to brake or shift in the turns, it's unbalancing the car and losing speed. You want to setup the speed, and balance the throttle through the turn, so both outside wheels are @ maximum adhesion.
All that means is you have to shift & brake @ the same time, hence, the heel-to-toe. Even in drifting, they tend to trail brake to get the traction up front, throw it in gear, and floor it while the car is still transferring weight to the front which induces the drift.
For the game I don't think it's needed, yeah it's fun to do, but it's better to try it in a real car so you get used to it. I can imagine there is not nearly as much springback on game pedals, I had to add a 10 lb. spring to kick my clutch pedal from around 5 lbs to 15 so it pops back out faster.
lol it's much more fun to upshift without the clutch too, but takes timing and practice. The heel-to-toe took me over 2 years to master.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0PmFPbWe2s <<< that's where I learned how to do it, on Sharp Park Blvd.
example: 4th gear @ 2,000 rpms = 3rd gear @ 4,000 rpm, so when you downshift, you have to tap the gas or "blip" the throttle so it matches when you put it into gear. Most passengers cars have synchromesh trannies, you can put it into any gear @ almost any rpm except reverse.
Now add braking to the equation. In order to maintain momentum of the car, and also to help setup the car to take the corner properly, you have to get the car in the right gear for the approaching turn. In racing you don't want to brake or shift in the turns, it's unbalancing the car and losing speed. You want to setup the speed, and balance the throttle through the turn, so both outside wheels are @ maximum adhesion.
All that means is you have to shift & brake @ the same time, hence, the heel-to-toe. Even in drifting, they tend to trail brake to get the traction up front, throw it in gear, and floor it while the car is still transferring weight to the front which induces the drift.
For the game I don't think it's needed, yeah it's fun to do, but it's better to try it in a real car so you get used to it. I can imagine there is not nearly as much springback on game pedals, I had to add a 10 lb. spring to kick my clutch pedal from around 5 lbs to 15 so it pops back out faster.
lol it's much more fun to upshift without the clutch too, but takes timing and practice. The heel-to-toe took me over 2 years to master.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0PmFPbWe2s <<< that's where I learned how to do it, on Sharp Park Blvd.
short reminder:
heel&toe =/= throttle blipping (rev matching) =/= double clutching
Simply put, heel&toe is operating the brake and gas pedals at the same time with the same foot. You might even say it's operating two pedals with one foot at the same time.
Throttle blipping without double clutching doesn't synchronize the gears as the tranny is not affected by the blip.
Even in a synchronized car you feel that it's harder to put in the gear when just throttle blipping on the clutch than when double clutching.
In everday driving, with an unsynchronized tranny you can get quite far without heel&toe: brake down to the desired speed, THEN shift with double clutching & rev matching. Or shift first if your revs are not already this high.
heel&toe =/= throttle blipping (rev matching) =/= double clutching
Simply put, heel&toe is operating the brake and gas pedals at the same time with the same foot. You might even say it's operating two pedals with one foot at the same time.
Throttle blipping without double clutching doesn't synchronize the gears as the tranny is not affected by the blip.
Even in a synchronized car you feel that it's harder to put in the gear when just throttle blipping on the clutch than when double clutching.
In everday driving, with an unsynchronized tranny you can get quite far without heel&toe: brake down to the desired speed, THEN shift with double clutching & rev matching. Or shift first if your revs are not already this high.
I'll say it again - I don't heel and toe in my race car, despite going down the gears and braking at the same time. I don't use the clutch, and I barely ever blip the throttle (unless I make a mistake). The car doesn't have syncro-rings, and it's a fairly normal Hewland racing 'box. You don't have to heel and toe.
Heel and Toe took two years to master!?!??!?!?
I thought I was slow when it took me a couple of weeks, or when I had to have four goes at double declutching before I was able to do that consistently.
Heel and Toe took two years to master!?!??!?!?
I thought I was slow when it took me a couple of weeks, or when I had to have four goes at double declutching before I was able to do that consistently.Actually it does. The clutch never totally disengages - there is always some friction - so a blip will affect the transmission. The difference is that with the clutch depressed you need a slightly larger blip to have the same result.
lol we have to blip in the older F2's, they have a hewland sequential nonsync'd tranny, if not, the gears grind like mad and we get yelled @ by the instructors. lol everytime I used to hear it it's like ouch that poor car... I only use the clutch for downshifts, I don't touch it on upshifts.
In those cars, the moment you lift off the gas the tension on the dogrings is released and for a split second is aligned in a way that you can bang it into the next gear without the clutch. That trick only takes @ most a day to learn to time perfectly for most drivers that can use a manual transmission. The hardest part is being able to do it fast enough, even with the shift throw about 1.5 inches, it's tricky but managable.
In those cars, the moment you lift off the gas the tension on the dogrings is released and for a split second is aligned in a way that you can bang it into the next gear without the clutch. That trick only takes @ most a day to learn to time perfectly for most drivers that can use a manual transmission. The hardest part is being able to do it fast enough, even with the shift throw about 1.5 inches, it's tricky but managable.
lol anyone here have an older RX7? I hear you can do it on those, I was thinking of buying one, but I don't know anyone that has any feedback on if they can do that or not.
I know in my miata, it's perfect for heel-toe shifts, but the clutch is too soft, it doesn't pop out as fast for me. The gas pedal and brake pedal are close enough to do it, they are even designed to be nearly @ the same height from the floorpan once the brake is pushed, making it easier to blip.
lol I tried on my mom's old civic, the brake pedal is much further then on the miata, I'd say about an inch or 2 further apart. It's enough to have to make you twist your foot nearly 90 degrees in order to do it, and the gas pedal is much smaller, making it that much harder to locate with your heel.
I know in my miata, it's perfect for heel-toe shifts, but the clutch is too soft, it doesn't pop out as fast for me. The gas pedal and brake pedal are close enough to do it, they are even designed to be nearly @ the same height from the floorpan once the brake is pushed, making it easier to blip.
lol I tried on my mom's old civic, the brake pedal is much further then on the miata, I'd say about an inch or 2 further apart. It's enough to have to make you twist your foot nearly 90 degrees in order to do it, and the gas pedal is much smaller, making it that much harder to locate with your heel.
Tristan does the hewland gearbox in your Reynard have synchros?
@Pablo, my friend's first gen RX7 has synchros.. well.. did.. haha, no they still work, I just bet there's something wrong with this linkage to the shifter somewhere giving him problems, can't wait, two more weeks is the zoom fest up at Road Atlanta I want to drive his RX7 I didn't get to before since I .. hadn't had a manual car before.
As for whoever is being stupid on this thread, double clutch isn't anything special, it's just more steps, meaning clutch in, drop to neutral, clutch out, clutch in, shift gear, clutch out. Something that was required before synchros were put in gearboxes.
Um, also.. as for LFS and shifting, does the paddle go straight to gear nowadays or no? I recall back in the day if I held the paddle down it would go into neutral and just rev the engine, can you still do that? I don't remember if that changed when Scawen changed the shifting stuff in S2, been a while since I played.
As for H gate shifters in LFS, it acts like the most perfect transmission you could ask for that never breaks no matter what hell you take it through, with my ACT Labs H shifter, once the button is disengaged, it's in neutral, I don't have to clutch in or anything, it does it all anyways.
..if only Scawen could program a code so if you geared in with synchros not matched for next gear you get a really nice grinding sounding and then everything goes silent except wind and you run over your trans and it disappears in the mirrors... uh.. hm yea something like that haha
@Pablo, my friend's first gen RX7 has synchros.. well.. did.. haha, no they still work, I just bet there's something wrong with this linkage to the shifter somewhere giving him problems, can't wait, two more weeks is the zoom fest up at Road Atlanta I want to drive his RX7 I didn't get to before since I .. hadn't had a manual car before.
As for whoever is being stupid on this thread, double clutch isn't anything special, it's just more steps, meaning clutch in, drop to neutral, clutch out, clutch in, shift gear, clutch out. Something that was required before synchros were put in gearboxes.
Um, also.. as for LFS and shifting, does the paddle go straight to gear nowadays or no? I recall back in the day if I held the paddle down it would go into neutral and just rev the engine, can you still do that? I don't remember if that changed when Scawen changed the shifting stuff in S2, been a while since I played.
As for H gate shifters in LFS, it acts like the most perfect transmission you could ask for that never breaks no matter what hell you take it through, with my ACT Labs H shifter, once the button is disengaged, it's in neutral, I don't have to clutch in or anything, it does it all anyways.
..if only Scawen could program a code so if you geared in with synchros not matched for next gear you get a really nice grinding sounding and then everything goes silent except wind and you run over your trans and it disappears in the mirrors... uh.. hm yea something like that haha
Will Heel & Toe reduce time?
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