yeeeeeeee I <3 bikes I got an R6 and an ol skool cbr600f - what kind is that one? it looks tight!!! I like them monster style, no fairing, flexes the muscles of the bike

Quote from Forbin :

Yeah, lean angle is another story. I use a lot of that, although not too much. 150 degrees on a bike means you're in trouble.

You'd just have leant all the way around and be leaning 30 degrees to the other direction.

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

lol without quoting everyone else, you have to think about other factors that make a car turn. Here's a question, how many tires steer the car? The answer is all 4.

Many things such as elevation, weight distribution of the car, the COG (center of gravity), brake bias, Limitied slip differentials, drivetrain layout like front engine powering rear wheels, or mid engine powering rear wheels.

Then there are the variables of the car in motion, such as how it transfers weight, braking, slip angles, tire sidewall deflection, chassis binding due to oversteer, etc.

It is a lot more complicated then just the steering settings of the front tires. In a street car, we are used to turning the wheel all the way, for things like u-turns, but in formula or le-mans cars, the steering ratio is dropped do to the time it takes to rotate the wheel. The one I drove is the Star Mazda Formula 2's, the steering never exceeded more then the 150 degrees from 0 being located in the 12 oclock position.

This is me in Turn 11, infineon raceway, in the F2000, you can see, the tires are not turned much even though it is a 185 degree u-turn with a radius of approximately 200 feet.




This is me in the same turn, bat in a TRC training car, which had stock production tires. Even with those, the wheel is turned a little more then shown above, but it never exceeded more then 150 degrees in either direction from the 12 oclock spot.

Yes but we're talking specifically about how twitchy the wheel is, not the car itself. Even though a road car must use more or less full lock to take a u-turn, if you did that at racing speeds you wouldn't need to move the wheel anywhere near as much.

lol noooooo thats bad for the rack & pinion / power steering to turn 100%, also your cv boots/joints if its front wheel drive will be damaged much faster. lol if you turn the race car's wheel too much, it will stop rolling and start deflecting the sidewall, it also binds the chassis. To put it in easy terms, binding the chassis is putting excessive force on a frame. Like a paperclip that is bent constantly, it will eventually snap, as will a race car, it loses rigidity, not to mention speed. lol

LFS turning is fine, lol it's close enough to the real thing for most of the ones I can say I have been able to drive, like ff's, fr's, and the smaller formulas. I wanna know what an MR2 feels like, the small F1 has a similar layout, but I bet the MR2 drifts very stable if the person knows how to throttle steer.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

You'd just have leant all the way around and be leaning 30 degrees to the other direction.

And here I thought there were 360 degrees in a circle.

mmmmm 360 degreez reminds me of frozen pizza, heat for 15-18 minutes on center rack!

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

lol noooooo thats bad for the rack & pinion / power steering to turn 100%, also your cv boots/joints if its front wheel drive will be damaged much faster. lol if you turn the race car's wheel too much, it will stop rolling and start deflecting the sidewall, it also binds the chassis. To put it in easy terms, binding the chassis is putting excessive force on a frame. Like a paperclip that is bent constantly, it will eventually snap, as will a race car, it loses rigidity, not to mention speed. lol

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Take a normal Honda Civic through a u-turn at 10 or 15 MPH and you'll need to give the wheel a couple turns. Take it through at 25 or 30 and you won't even need to give it half a turn. The faster you go, the less steering you need to use, even if the corner geometry is the same. Any steering input = loss of speed.

Another example. If I'm below the limit in my kart, say on a cooldown lap or a recon lap, I'll use maybe 20 or 30 degrees of steering to get around a 30 MPH hairpin. If I'm carrying enough speed, trail braking right and turning in at the proper place I will use less than 10 degrees of steering, if any at all. The fastest way around a corner is the one with the least amount of steering input. No matter the car, no matter the setup, no matter the conditions this is the one constant in cornering theory.

That's not how it works, MadCat360. The car doesn't magically turn tighter because you're going faster. You need a specific amount of steering input to maintain a specific steering radius, regardless of speed. If anything, you probably need more steering input as you approach the limits of lateral grip due to slippage.

Bikes are a little different. As speed increases, you need more lean angle to maintain a specific turning radius. This also means that if you slow down while leaned over at a constant angle, you'll immediately start carving a tighter arc, whereas a car would require more steering input to turn tighter.

The only time you might need to steer less for a given corner is if the rear starts to slide. Your front tires still have the same angle of attack relative to the road, but from the driver's perspective, the steering may be closer to straight ahead, relative to the car.

Quote from Forbin :

This also means that if you slow down while leaned over at a constant angle, you'll immediately start carving a tighter arc, whereas a car would require more steering input to turn tighter.

so does a bike
if you slow down while maintaining your current lean and steering angle youre going to lowside the bike
which is rather embarassing

Generally the bike automatically compensates for the required minute increase in steering input, so long as the rider is practicing proper technique (light on the bars, minimal weight resting on them, arms loose). That is unless you're going too slow for the forces acting on the steering to overcome the steering system's inertia.

Note how when a motorbike oversteers, the front wheel automatically stays pointed in the direction of travel. It's the same principle.

So yes, in a way you're right, but there is a clear distinction here between what is automatic and what is required to be a conscious action on the part of the driver.

to me that sounds a lot like sitting on the bike and trying not to fall off instead of riding it but anyway it still means that the bike does indeed need more steering input just like the car does

Quite the opposite, actually. Inexperienced riders are the ones who tend to put a lot of weight on the bars in an attempt to not fall off.

Any motorbike racer will tell you a bike works best when the rider carries his weight with his feet rather than his hands. Arms/chest resting on the fuel tank and butt resting on the seat are all okay too, but keeping weight off the bars is a must. Force is only applied to the bars to set the lean angle. Even under braking I do my best to use other muscles (legs, back) to hold myself upright, rather than my arms.

Quote from Forbin :

That's not how it works, MadCat360. The car doesn't magically turn tighter because you're going faster. You need a specific amount of steering input to maintain a specific steering radius, regardless of speed. If anything, you probably need more steering input as you approach the limits of lateral grip due to slippage.

That would be the case if tires were a static factor, but they are not. The more work a tire is doing the less work the steering has to do. If the tires aren't working then yeah, you'll need to use a lot more steering than if you were on the limit. We call this "steering with our feet". The perfect culmination of turn-in, speed, angle, apex, brake release and throttle application produces a zero-steer corner. With the right rear brake bias it is entirely physically possible to drive a track without using the steering wheel. Humanly impossible, as it would be the perfect lap and no one can do that, but that is perfection in a theoretical sense - a four-wheel drift.

I think we're all agreed LFS is a good enough sim. Take a look at the fastest replays. Very little steering input. It's mostly zero steer.

Quote from Shotglass :

so does a bike
if you slow down while maintaining your current lean and steering angle youre going to lowside the bike
which is rather embarassing

As far as I've experienced, maximum lean angle (around 52 degrees on sports rubber) can be achieved at 15mph or 150mph.

Unless, of course, I've misunderstood the point.

"At higher speeds you need less steering to go round a corner than you do at high speed" What rubbish. The steering directly controls the angle of the wheels, which directly (ignoring slip or LSD symptoms) controls the radius of turning by simple geometry. At 1mph you should need the same steering angle to follow the same line as you would at 100mph, until other effects like understeer or oversteer or suspension compression become important.

Quote from MadCat360 :

That would be the case if tires were a static factor, but they are not. The more work a tire is doing the less work the steering has to do. If the tires aren't working then yeah, you'll need to use a lot more steering than if you were on the limit. We call this "steering with our feet". The perfect culmination of turn-in, speed, angle, apex, brake release and throttle application produces a zero-steer corner. With the right rear brake bias it is entirely physically possible to drive a track without using the steering wheel. Humanly impossible, as it would be the perfect lap and no one can do that, but that is perfection in a theoretical sense - a four-wheel drift.

I think we're all agreed LFS is a good enough sim. Take a look at the fastest replays. Very little steering input. It's mostly zero steer.

I already described the special case of rear slip and its effect on steering input. Yes, the steering wheel may be fairly straight in a 4-wheel drift, but that's not really using less steering. The front wheels are still at an angle relative to the direction of travel (i.e. angle of attack). This angle is required to generate lateral force. If the angle of attack is 0, the lateral force is 0, in which case you're going straight, not turning.

What you described as being possible in a Honda Civic is quite simply impossible. I think we can all agree it's not going to be experiencing a 4-wheel drift. You might be able to initiate some brief oversteer but no front wheel drive car will hold it.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

As far as I've experienced, maximum lean angle (around 52 degrees on sports rubber) can be achieved at 15mph or 150mph.

Unless, of course, I've misunderstood the point.

as to be expected... you have

Quote from tristancliffe :

At 1mph you should need the same steering angle to follow the same line as you would at 100mph, until other effects like understeer or oversteer or suspension compression become important.

Which would be going fast enough. If they're not important then you're not going fast enough. That's my point. Go fast enough, and you don't need to use any steering. Speed is a matrix of a lot of factors, not just MPH.

Quote from Forbin :

I already described the special case of rear slip and its effect on steering input. Yes, the steering wheel may be fairly straight in a 4-wheel drift, but that's not really using less steering. The front wheels are still at an angle relative to the direction of travel (i.e. angle of attack). This angle is required to generate lateral force. If the angle of attack is 0, the lateral force is 0, in which case you're going straight, not turning.

What you described as being possible in a Honda Civic is quite simply impossible. I think we can all agree it's not going to be experiencing a 4-wheel drift. You might be able to initiate some brief oversteer but no front wheel drive car will hold it.

A front wheel drive car is easier to get into slip angle than it is any other car, just not on the throttle. Still, a FWD touring car can be set up to keep a decent amount of slip angle even under power.

The difference between turning the steering wheel and the tires creating their own steering effects via angle of attack is not semantics. It's two very different ways of doing things. You want me to start quoting books? I have a test day on July 9, want me to ask all four of my driver coaches?

Quote from Michael Denham :

I wish it were as simple as using the 'correct' amount of lock. With my DFP, the force feedback is just too slow when you're trying to correct oversteer in an LX6 with full steering lock. I think the G25 is fast enough, but with the DFP when you're trying to force the wheel faster than the FF motors want to go, it's not a lot of fun.

Absolutely, it really can't keep up when things get really hairy, but if you don't go too far over the limits then smaller corrections aren't a problem and are, IMO, much more satisfying to make.

For those who haven't tried it it's hard to describe why it feels better, but taking the FZ5 around a high-speed track like Westhill becomes infinitely more enjoyable because it's a car that benefits greatly from smooth inputs. Gently unwinding the wheel on corner exit while feeding in the power just feels more "right" (i.e. less like a game) than the tight inputs required with considerably less lock. You can also better "feel" the subtleties of the physics engine.

Seriously, even if you don't like racing with a lot of lock, I'd still recommend trying some more realistic values offline if your wheel is capable!

i want to put my g25 at 900 degrees, but then if i drive a formula car it will also be 900 degrees (probably a script) also, i like to see the steering wheel in the car in the game, it just looks too un-realistic if it isnt there, and if it is there, i cant stand it being off how far the g25 is. i guess everything cant be perfect

logitekg25 - set your wheel to 900° then in LFS, set wheel turn compensation to 1.0. Then all vehicles have correct steering. The only issue is you lose the FFB soft stops the driver usually provides at settings <900°.

why diddnt i think of that before no wait...i tried that before, it has the 900 on the g25, but only the g25, for the cars it still stops at the 720

EDIT: but if i say my wheel only turns 720, will that do the trick?

900 in control panel, 900 in LFS and wheel turn compensation to 1.0 = perfectly in-sync real and virtual wheels in all cars.
720 in control panel, 720 in LFS and wheel turn compensation to 1.0 = perfectly in-sync real and virtual wheels in all cars.

Quote from logitekg25 :

EDIT: but if i say my wheel only turns 720, will that do the trick?

Yes, if you have 720° both in the Profiler and ingame, you will get the FFB-stops at 720°... That'll only help you in the road cars though, the faster machines have less lock and the FFB stop will still be at 720°...

"Help" is maybe exaggerated - I have yet to hit full lock (and thus the stops) when everything didn't went all messy moments before...