2Tweaker post #73: amen
My english isnt good enough for describe all my thoughts, but you did it well.

2MyBoss: no, only solution is make driver seat adjustable (only ahead/back + up/down like in real car) in cockpit view. There are 2 problems with custom view:
1, as Tweaker said (good point), you can choose right drive position for better weight balance, but drive (have view) on the left side, its "cheat"
2, custom view isnt affected by heads G forces, you cant hide wheel and body and in addition you loose nice cams for making videos or watching replays (im using custom views for cams like in TV)

btw: I drove with custom view until patch S. Then I decided not to cheat

Quote from MyBoss :

True, but if people set their servers to run with Cockpit mode only, then it means fewer servers for us that wants to play the game in the traditional way.

MYBoss -

I'm rather confused with the above sentence, I take it you don't play LFS with the inside the car (cockpit view) but want to play the game in the "traditional way" now a traditional way to drive a car is from the inside , so cockpit view is the only way to drive, but you are against limiting the driving view to the most common, natural and really the only true driving for realism way? can you see why I'm confused a bit at your statement?

Quote from Pablo.CZ :

btw: I drove with custom view until patch S. Then I decided not to cheat

hmmm, I don't understand, do you mean people that are using custom view are cheaters?

Quote from ShannonN :

MYBoss -
I'm rather confused with the above sentence, I take it you don't play LFS with the inside the car (cockpit view) but want to play the game in the "traditional way" now a traditional way to drive a car is from the inside , so cockpit view is the only way to drive, but you are against limiting the driving view to the most common, natural and really the only true driving for realism way? can you see why I'm confused a bit at your statement?

What I meant with traditional way was the way the game is now, where you can join the servers you want to regardless of the car view you use.. Picked the wrong word there maybe.

I've explained why I don't want this option into LFS several times now.

1. In LFS you can only move your head to view the left or right of your car, you can't move the head so you get that damn corner out of the blind spot. And in Real life you have much better view than in any game.
2. There would be fewer racers left on the servers that are running the default setting, there are few enough allready.
3. In the end it could divide the community where the hardcore guys thinks they are much better, more serious and dedicated than those with custom view. (can allready see it in this thread)

Here is a pic of my driving view.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1672/altview5qw.jpg

Quote from Pablo.CZ :

btw: I drove with custom view until patch S. Then I decided not to cheat

Cheap shot. As much as I prefer my custom view, I was actually debating trying again to race in cockpit view but since I'm regarded as a cheater for racing in my view I feel much less enthused to race in your view...

I agree with Tweaker's idea that I also suggested earlier: have a Hardcore mode tied to the password system so that a password must be specified before Hardcore mode can be enabled.

Keep the rules the same across the public servers so that people won't get confused and frustrated and give up.

Sorry, "cheater" is strong and wrong word, I dont know better - I mean to have advantage to others, coz custom view can be realistic but also very unrealistic..

Password (you mean private server for hardcore mode?) doesnt solve anything, people will be on this server if passworded or not.

Quote from Pablo.CZ :

Password (you mean private server for hardcore mode?) doesnt solve anything, people will be on this server if passworded or not.

The only passworded servers you see nowadays are for closed events. I've seen experiments in the past with passworded normal servers. Trust me, they were ghost towns.

Having hardcore only available when passworded is stupid. Mebbe the same should be done about the BF1 only servers, because I want to race an FZR on that server damnit.

Of course if the title of the server was Password = hardcore ... that would basically make the server public... so passwording the server solves nothing.

I am of the opinion that the person running the server should be given TOTAL control. The server admin should be able to specify just about everything on the server. If you don't like it, there are dozens of other servers to play on, or you can run your own.

Even though I probably wouldn't enforce cockpit view on my server, I sure hope the devs make this option available because I should be able to. The more control server admins have, the more level the playing field can be and the cleaner the racing can be.

I am pretty much all for the realism type of player. However some things should be left out as they don't really add anything. For me realism increases the fun factor, like in nkpro I have to start the engine, take care not to stall the engine, only in car view available, use mouse to press buttons etc.. I like it a lot more than the LFS "nfsu"-type of "no damage whatever you do"-approach. After nkpro the LFS feels so arcadey (the physics rock, cars are good, tracks are good, but...).

But if we start pushing the realism too far, it will make the racing more frustrating than fun. Like having a practise session, quali session and race session everytime in random online races with no chance to join mid-race or making the damage repairs last as long they would in real life. Only thing these do is that they allow less driving. For league races these may work and when used correctly they would add to the experience. But not for random online races.

After all, driving LFS is fun partly because you don't need to worry about all the realism factor all the time. Broke the gearbox, for example: Make the gearbox break, but don't make me pay it or wait the rest of the day for it to be fixed

Quote from Gunn :

So are you saying that if a server is running options that you don't like then somehow the server admin is alienating you?

I find it odd that people can act like they would be deprived of some cardinal right if a server ran options that they didn't like, effectively stopping them from enjoying the type of racing that those who like the options might enjoy in that server.
If a group of hardcore race sim enthusiasts wish to compete under strict and even conditions it is logical that a non-hardcore racer wouldn't enjoy the action anyway and therefore isn't being deprived of anything that he desires. You wouldn't be missing out on a thing if hardcore servers were in the list.

LFS is a mecca for hardcore sim racers and I believe there is certainly enough support for hardcore options. There is certainly plenty of public servers out there where people can have fun and drive together, but I know I'm not alone in saying that it would be great to see some servers out there that are strictly no nonsense hardcore racing.
A variety of hardcore options that could include fuel load limiting, control tyre choice, no telepitting or reset, no text chat and other realistic race controls would enhance and add depth to online racing.
Not everyone enjoys the public server circus, I certainly don't unless I just feel like screwing around. I can't take public server racing seriously at all.
Some hardcore options would not go astray for serious racers.

I just about completely agree with this.Aside from league racing, the online racing scene hasn't really evolved at all.We're still doing those boring 5 lap sprint races we've always done; they totally dominate the server list, and I dont know if that is what everyone really wants. I want to think it isnt, because I would certainly prefer something else, but right now I think we haven't the tools that might facilitate a change.Why not allow the people who would prefer a different online experience, those very tools?

I'd prefer diversity to conformity any day, even if it alienates some people ( which is a pretty weak argument anyway, you might as well say that servers that don't allow all cars are alienating people).It's your choice as a person to adapt or find a server that does suit your preferences.

Besides, I imagine that an increased diversity would actually encourage more people to race online - the people who don't find the sprint race + t1 carnage experience thrilling might be pleased to see servers that offered something different, be it longer races or some of the possible options Gunn mentioned, or both.

I'm a little bit surprised.

Its like you guys think that with a hardcore server. T1 crashes, 5lap races and so on will just wanish. Its not, its pretty naive to even think thats going to happen. Many people thought there would be cleaner racing in S2 compared to S1 because of the damage, well, there isn't.

And agrumenting with that "all cars allowed" thing just isn't the same, its logical that you can't have a public UF1 race if the BF1 or any other fast cars are enabled.

Quote :

"If a group of hardcore race sim enthusiasts wish to compete under strict and even conditions it is logical that a non-hardcore racer wouldn't enjoy the action anyway and therefore isn't being deprived of anything that he desires. You wouldn't be missing out on a thing if hardcore servers were in the list."

Why do you think a racer with custom view wouldn't enjoy the action just as much? Do you think those running with cockpit view are better drivers? Do you think they are more enthusiastic?
The only differense is the driver view, nothing more, nothing less.


Just a note, I would love to see those other options you are mentioning.

Quote :

A variety of hardcore options that could include fuel load limiting, control tyre choice, no telepitting or reset, no text chat and other realistic race controls would enhance and add depth to online racing.

Quote from MyBoss :

... Do you think those running with cockpit view are better drivers? ...

Nope of course!
They are only Hard_Core_Simmers not The_Best_Simmers
Sorry but, what do you think about Papyrus choice to insert in a masterpiece like NR2003 the HARDCORE MODE (Forced Cockpit View) in hosting/joining a game?

Quote from MyBoss :

I'm a little bit surprised.

Its like you guys think that with a hardcore server. T1 crashes, 5lap races and so on will just wanish. Its not, its pretty naive to even think thats going to happen. Many people thought there would be cleaner racing in S2 compared to S1 because of the damage, well, there isn't....

I think if the penalties are tough enough. No restarts, only race end from people in race etc then it will reduce T1 crashes just because people that normally have a crash in T1 will be put off racing those servers. It will not eliminate T1 madness because its still there IRL. I just want the cost of a crash increases so you can't just jump to pits to repair the car and then dick around on the track while you wait for next race.

Can we drop the forced cockpit fight now.

The forced cockpit debate has been thrashed to death here and in RSC over the years have ALWAYS ended up the same. One side saying "its only an option" and the other side "but it will become the default and I hate cockpit mode or my FPS drops too much so I wont be able to play". I know because I have been involved in some of them myself.

NOTHING has been added to this debate at all and it never will.

Both side have a point and both side will not move their viewpoint so it becomes a flame war.

If the devs want to force cockpit view they will. They are well aware of the fights it will cause just as they could see the emotion that surrounded the keyboard/wheel fight on RSC when it happened.

So what ELSE, apart from forced cockpit, should be part of hardcore mode?

Quote from Woz :

Can we drop the forced cockpit fight now (...) If the devs want to force cockpit view they will (...)

It will be welcome!

Quote from Woz :

(...) So what ELSE, apart from forced cockpit, should be part of hardcore mode?

OK ... forced cockpit apart
= Fixed seat
= Forced Wheel-driving (if possible .... Joystick detection!)
= Forced Manual clutch
= Forced TC if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= Forced ABS if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= No TC if no present in real car simulated
= No ABS if no present in real car simulated
= No steering help
......

On behalf of Woz's post above, this suggestion thread should have posts what Vaillant has posted above too. Lets discuss the things that WOULD make this a nice feature. Otherwise, I think this entire suggestion will continue to be thrown out of proportion, because all I see now is...

"Oh, well if this was put into the game, I sure as hell will never play LFS ever again"....

Throw me a bone!!! When feature suggestions are proposed they always end up being "OMG no!!!!". We've had people complaining that if we ever had a Formula 1 car in the game, and said they'd never play the game again if it happened. We've had people complaining that if we had more than 20 slots on a server everyone would be crashing into each other, and said they'd never play the game again if it happened. Can I just keep repeating myself?

Most people here are so arsed about this game changing. Most people still do not realize that practically EVERY suggestion that affects the gameplay of LFS is not permanent, it is an option. I had my thrills with the BF1, but I am moving onto the other cars, I don't have to join a BF1 only server, I have a choice. So to say that you will be isolated from servers that have such options enabled, and only left with empty servers, that is bullshit. There are over 300+ servers to choose from, you could join an empty one and people will start joining. My team's server last night had nobody in it, I switched it up to a fun new combo, it has had a great night of racing on it.

Bring about change you guys, or else we have a game that doesn't grow into something that is quite possibly better. Besides, LFS has always been implementing features that most simulations would die for. Not to mention, those kinds of features that some people disagree on, but actually have no affect on them after they try it. Stop exaggerating. Trend setting is one thing, but having people say they won't play a game anymore because of some popular feature/option, that is absurd.

Quote from Tweaker :

"Oh, well if this was put into the game, I sure as hell will never play LFS ever again"....

It shure is fun to discuss when people pick ONE line of all that I have said in this thread, focus everything on that sentence and impressively manages to jump over all the other I have said. Neat, isn't it!

Quote :

So to say that you will be isolated from servers that have such options enabled, and only left with empty servers, that is bullshit.

It truly is, because I haven't said that, I'm answering like that because shure this post of yours was aimed at me, right?

Here is what I said, once again.

Quote :

1. In LFS you can only move your head to view the left or right of your car, you can't move the head so you get that damn corner out of the blind spot. And in Real life you have much better view than in any game.
2. There would be fewer racers left on the servers that are running the default setting, there are few enough allready.
3. In the end it could divide the community where the hardcore guys thinks they are much better, more serious and dedicated than those with custom view. (can allready see it in this thread)

Quote from Vaillant :

It will be welcome!
OK ... forced cockpit apart
= Fixed seat
= Forced Wheel-driving (if possible .... Joystick detection!)
= Forced Manual clutch
= Forced TC if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= Forced ABS if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= No TC if no present in real car simulated
= No ABS if no present in real car simulated
= No steering help
......

Agree on most of those. The server could allso have an option to force people to drive with the same amount of fuel, no car resetting, no race-join after start.

In general those are peoples reactions to any suggestion. Guess you don't see my point. Unless you want me to go and search hundreds of threads in which people say "YES or NO to what could be an outstanding feature for LFS in the future, but I wont play the game anymore because of it."

Divide the community my ass!!!! People have their own homes in LFS, they go and do their regular procedures online, and people can race online wherever they want. Oval racers are happily racing around in circles by themselves in their small 'group'. People that want to do long 20-30 lap races online can join any of those endurance servers. People that want to fool around on a server that has all the cars enabled can join those. Having choices for where to race online has always been this way, and you see people joining servers which have things they like. If there isn't a server online that only allows the UF1 at FE RallyX, well tough, but would I just not play the game alltogether, or feel 'divided'? No. You have plenty of other choices, and those kinds of choices would be no different from trying to choose from a normal server or a hardcore server. When the BF1 first came out, practically all the servers had it enabled. But as time has progressed, people have moved back to what they prefer, be it roadcars or the GTR cars. The same would happen for this feature, and I don't see how everyone would be forced to join active servers that have it, other servers would play with it off, no doubt. And to think you wouldn't even want to TRY it, just goes to show you are already dividing yourself from the community, or in places where the game wants to expand and try new things illepall

So suddenly you agree on these options, but still think it will bring disaster to online racing in LFS. Well we can only wait and see. Besides, you are 100% sure Scawen wouldn't make this, but I do recall one of the devs mentioned it?

I would like a proper hardcore mode - forced cockpit view, limited tyre changes, limited setup options, complete race weekends, saved online so league weekends can occur over several days with no tweaking of setups other than the allowed parameters, no on screen chat, no on screen lap times (other than pitboard and dashboard), no look behind view (mirrors only), no virtual mirror option, forced wind... etc etc.

But I would not want it to be a widespead thing - perhaps only for private servers and league races, although a few will of course use it on public servers. But it would be almost useless, from a fun point of view, and so the vast majority or servers will be 'normal', as that would be what the masses demand. So don't fret about not having a decent number of servers. It would barely change a thing for public races, and probably not all league servers.

Quote from Tweaker :

... all I see now is... "Oh, well if this was put into the game, I sure as hell will never play LFS ever again" ...

For sure you dont see all .....
You have to consider that there is a kind of player that already likes to play only in an, how can I say?, "handmade" hardcore_mode. And this player doesn't like play against no-HC players : I'm one of these "handmade" HC simmers.
I'v got LFS1 > S2 ALPHA, but I very rarely play LFS coze I'm just waiting for an HC-mode: so ..... I created this thread.
Maybe the correct title of this thread was "I'd like to play LFS. Give me, please, an HC-Mode"

Quote from tristancliffe :

So don't fret about not having a decent number of servers. It would barely change a thing for public races, and probably not all league servers.

Exactly, because there are features that have been made for more of a league's focus.... such as the 'timed/hourly' race for endurance racing. You don't see 1 hour races publicly, most people just have their server using 5-10 lap races and it is quick, easy, and fun. I know that most people would not approve of the hardcore mode, and would want to go and find a normal public server. But like with that timed race setting, you would find it would be well suited for private races and leagues that wish to keep an even playing field. Publicly, I doubt the option would make much of an appeal to racers, maybe a few servers would have it, but I doubt it would be a craze that spreads like crazy online. Think about that 'MUST PIT' feature we have, you don't see that used often in servers. But when it is enabled, that is quite fun.

So I think if these 'hardcore' options were able to be set seperately, that would be nice. If the options were bundled all into one 'hardcore' mode, well... that would spoil some things. Having restrictions on fuel and tire choice for example, that is something we need no matter what.

Quote from Tweaker :

So suddenly you agree on these options, but still think it will bring disaster to online racing in LFS. Well we can only wait and see. Besides, you are 100% sure Scawen wouldn't make this, but I do recall one of the devs mentioned it?

The forced cockpit option that was suggested in the first post in this thread is the ONLY option I don't want into the game. I thought I made that VERY clear.

And where have I said I'm 100% shure that the devs won't implement the feature?

Quote :

And to think you wouldn't even want to TRY it, just goes to show you are already dividing yourself from the community, or in places where the game wants to expand and try new things

And again, where have I said I won't try it? Its not fair of you to say things about me that you don't know anything about.
For your information I have tried default view (cockpit) more and more lately.
But that clearly isn't the point, I would mean exactly the same if I allso used cockpit view.


I thought about one thing, how about the devs implements some kind of option that allows everyone on the server to view each others driving positions? That way, leagues could have a rule about view settings, and just check if everyone is obeying the rule.

Oh and MyBoss, I only gave your post(s) as an example because the majority of good suggestions are ultimately thrown out of proportion by people saying "NO, this will ruin everything", and then can make people jump on the bandwagon and start saying "NO" aswell, without even thinking or discussing the topic completely, to give the feature more 'edge'. I know you made your point with that by just the 'forced cockpit' option... but from reading everything in here, it just looks to shut down the entire suggestion completely. People could get the wrong impression. I've seen plenty of threads with GREAT feature suggestions, but then they start to turn into disagreements and don't take the suggestion anywhere, and yet again... we are left with no ideas. If we keep it up, LFS will just be same old - same old.

There are some suggestions which are easily answered with "NO" (like neons and bodykits :rolleyes: ), but for suggestions in which people like or dislike, a debate on the suggestion never turns in the right direction. For people that want such a risky suggestion, they need to think about what would affect the game in good and positive ways. The same goes for people what wouldn't want the suggestion... there needs to be a discussion about why this part would be so bad, but another could be quite good. We cannot just write-off a suggestion as being bad without even discussing it or without creating collaboration of ideas.

Look at how the RaceAbout got its debut in LFS. Someone suggested it over at RSC, most people liked it, some didn't exactly like the design, but all in all, people could approve of it one way or another.

Quote from Tweaker :

Oh and MyBoss, I only gave your post(s) as an example because the majority of good suggestions are ultimately thrown out of proportion by people saying "NO, this will ruin everything", and then can make people jump on the bandwagon and start saying "NO" aswell, without even thinking or discussing the topic completely, to give the feature more 'edge'. I know you made your point with that by just the 'forced cockpit' option... but from reading everything in here, it just looks to shut down the entire suggestion completely. People could get the wrong impression. I've seen plenty of threads with GREAT feature suggestions, but then they start to turn into disagreements and don't take the suggestion anywhere, and yet again... we are left with no ideas. If we keep it up, LFS will just be same old - same old.

True, I allso see the benefits of forced cockpit (leagues and organised events).
But I think I made some good points, I didn't just say "NO this is stupid".

I think we should follow Woz'es excample and let go of this discussion, atleast for now. So we can discuss the other Hardcore options.

Quote from Woz :

Can we drop the forced cockpit fight now.

The forced cockpit debate has been thrashed to death here and in RSC over the years have ALWAYS ended up the same.

I bet Scawen's already got a list of things to include in a hardcore mode, and will no longer bother reading most of these threads about it. He know's what he wants in LFS, and it's rare he makes a bad decision.