I'll be going to a trackday in france this weekend. So i was wondering...

About eight years ago i was on this track already with the MX-5 i had back then. It was a two day course where the first day consisted of instructors teaching you, and the second day was free driving.

I remember how i was very excited and when it was free driving on the second day, i couldn't get enough. I kept going until the tires got so hot, they would just slide around and lose a lot of grip basically. I went into the pit lane and waited maybe 30 minutes, not more, then went back on track. I did this for the whole morning, and then the same again in the afternoon...

The result of this was completely ruined tires. It looked like they were stressed too much (continuous hard driving after tires get too hot), and not like it was a naturally "outworn" tire.

I think what i'm looking for is a good strategy for driving hard, but not completely ruin the tires... like a time formula maybe?

How long should a session on the track be? And how long the break in the pitlane?

I would like to get the most of it, but also not "torture" the car / material too much. It's not overly expensive, and i have time all day long (free driving only this time), so i can take it easy.

Any other advice is also welcome.
(Helmet, Oil, Gaffa Tape, Camcorder and a Camera... anything else?)

Cheers.

Maybe play with tire pressures a bit. Generally, more pressure = lower temps. Don't overinflate them, though, and check pressures when the tires are hot, fresh off the track.

This is generally a problem with street tires, though. The tires are too thick, they hold too much heat.

Like Forbin says, tyre pressures will have some effect.

But ultimately there really isn't anything can do to stop turning your tyres to mush except maybe fitting a set of harder compound ones for the day but that really defeats the point of a track day.

At least for bikes, we have street tires that are marketed as "trackday" tires. They're not really anything special, just a softer compound street tire.

Race tires are another thing entirely with both DOT race and slick tires being essentially the same thing, except one doesn't have any tread. Tire warmers are required to minimize heat cycling on race tires. You can run them without but they harden up the more cycles they get.

What sort of tyres are you running, most road tyres will be fine with 30 minutes of track use and a cooling off period, they need to be warm but if they get overheated they'll get ruined very quickly, typically brakes are the limiting factor in a road car on a track, in a car with road pads and DOT4 fade can usually be avoided by choosing not to brake as hard as you can at a couple of points on the circuit. Brake fluid boiling is unlikely in a standard (including tyres) road car being driven a bit bellow race pace, if you are too hard on the car and the fluid does boil before pads fade (easilly possible on a car running DOT4 and uprated brakes and tyres) then there's usually no warning and a total loss of brakes, if the brakes fail you're almost guaranteed to have a serious accident, getting them working safely is the most important thing in any car.

If you're in a car with plenty of power reserve sticking it in a higher gear than you have to use will help keep it a bit cooler on long straights (most tracks have a dull section where taking it easy reduces wear and fade and lets you stay out for longer, ie. at Donington the run from exiting Coppice to braking for Redgate nothing interesting happens, by easing off you save the car wear and the chance of having a silly accident at the chicane and get to stay out longer on the good part of the circuit).

Four point harnesses also fit into older cars very easily, just replace the standard seatbelt bolts with eyelets and you can unclip your harnesses when you don't using, they also add some lateral support for normal seats.

Quote from gezmoor :

But ultimately there really isn't anything can do to stop turning your tyres to mush except maybe fitting a set of harder compound ones for the day but that really defeats the point of a track day.

The speed at which you lap at is irrelevant on a track day, there's no point using slicks or road legal competition tyres on a car that only does track days/non-competitive events. The compounds in semi-slick tyres are usually effected by heat cycles meaning you're only going to get a few uses out of them before they become hard and old, still good for track days but not as good. Semi-slicks on road cars also produce a lot of road noise and wear out quickly (due to the small amount of tread they start with), not to mention they'll slow you down and waste fuel driving down a motorway. For a track day a set of non-budget tyres comfortably within their speed rating preferably worn but not damaged will be fine.

Well, from my amateur point of view, but as someone that has done two trackdays at Spa Francorchamps ( Mini Cooper S so not a trackday car):

The sessions there for the particular organization are generally limited at 25 minutes each. This allows the categories to rotate, but supposedly it's for the car to cool down too. I myself felt the car going bad after 20 minutes, tyres too hot, brakes fading etc...Still drivable and enjoyable, but I felt instinctively that the car was degrading permanently. But that is just my impression and I may stand clarified or corrected.

On another hand, there were several Porsche GT3 RS (trackday car) from a club there running with us, with their drivers seemingly professional and dressed like they were Sparco clowns. They were always going out on track after us, and when all the cars got back in the paddocks, they were there already drinking coffee. This triggered my curiosity so I went to discuss with them, and they told me that they got there so often, so they are mostly interested in laptimes at this level, and that the only laps valuable for a lap record were the third, fourth and fifth. Before, the car was too cold and after too warm, so there was no point running them after and degrading tyres or generally the car. So basically they did 13-15 minutes stints.

I'll be going with an S2000, completely stock, running on new (500km) Bridgestone Potenza RE050A tires. The track will be this one: http://www.circuitdulaquais.co ... 8b3100916c20c420da2d38679

I remember about the tire pressure being increased by about 0.2 Bar.

Quote from Paranoid Android :

Well, from my amateur point of view, but as someone that has done two trackdays at Spa Francorchamps ( Mini Cooper S so not a trackday car):

The sessions there for the particular organization are generally limited at 25 minutes each. This allows the categories to rotate, but supposedly it's for the car to cool down too. I myself felt the car going bad after 20 minutes, tyres too hot, brakes fading etc...Still drivable and enjoyable, but I felt instinctively that the car was degrading permanently. But that is just my impression and I may stand clarified or corrected.

On another hand, there were several Porsche GT3 RS (trackday car) from a club there running with us, with their drivers seemingly professional and dressed like they were Sparco clowns. They were always going out on track after us, and when all the cars got back in the paddocks, they were there already drinking coffee. This triggered my curiosity so I went to discuss with them, and they told me that they got there so often, so they are mostly interested in laptimes at this level, and that the only laps valuable for a lap record were the third, fourth and fifth. Before, the car was too cold and after too warm, so there was no point running them after and degrading tyres or generally the car. So basically they did 13-15 minutes stints.

I'd say a Mini Cooper S makes a good trackday car. Everything that will put a smile on your face while going fast through corners is fine.

I had the same impressions back then, that the car would kind of "degrade" after a certain ammount of laps / time. The brakes where not a problem however, and i don't remember stressing them actually. I was pretty careful when approaching a corner, but enjoyed searching the limit once i've entered them.

What you said about the guys in their GT3's sounds interesting. The big question is, for how long did they drink coffee inbetween those sessions?

Quote from ajp71 :

The speed at which you lap at is irrelevant on a track day, there's no point using slicks or road legal competition tyres on a car that only does track days/non-competitive events. The compounds in semi-slick tyres are usually effected by heat cycles meaning you're only going to get a few uses out of them before they become hard and old, still good for track days but not as good. Semi-slicks on road cars also produce a lot of road noise and wear out quickly (due to the small amount of tread they start with), not to mention they'll slow you down and waste fuel driving down a motorway. For a track day a set of non-budget tyres comfortably within their speed rating preferably worn but not damaged will be fine.

Don't see how any of that relates to what I said but nevermind.

Every few laps, do a slow lap. You'll be surprised how quickly everything cools down on a slow lap! If you want to check hot tyre pressures (a good idea, but only if you know what pressure you want them to be - the cold pressure suggestion isn't very helpful) then make sure you do a 'hard' lap on your in lap so that everything is still nice and warm.

Balance the car using tyre pressures - remember that with street tyres higher pressure = more grip (generally), the opposite of what happens with racing tyres.

Go out for 25 minutes, and try to leave about 15 minutes cooling off. Don't use the handbrake when the brakes are hot, and ideally push the car periodically so that the same area of the disc isn't insulated by the pad the whole time. After about 5 minutes, start the car for a few seconds so that the cooler coolant is moved around the engine to avoid hotspots in the engine (unlikely, but you never know).

Quote from jibber :

Any other advice is also welcome.
(Helmet, Oil, Gaffa Tape, Camcorder and a Camera... anything else?)

Cheers.

Brake fluid, a few emergency tools, cable ties, washing up liquid (to stop your visor steaming up in the wet!)... And probably other stuff too if you can

My car (Toyota Tercel, coupe, 1.5L) is packed whenever I go to a trackday:

Cabin:
- riding gear (helmet, leathers, gloves, boots, back protector))
- box for miscellaneous stuff (flashlight, cell phone, money for tolls, duct tape, scissors)
- cooler
- sleeping bag and pillow
- ramp for trailer
- clothes
- toiletry kit

Boot (trunk):
- bicycle air pump
- box of tools and fluids (socket wrench, box wrenches, allen wrenches, channel locks, crescent wrench, hammer, pliers, screw drivers, coolant, oil, chain lube, multi-purpose grease, sun block, rags)
- spare trailer wheel and tire
- front and rear motorcycle lifts/stands
- 5 gallon fuel can (usually left empty until I get close to the track to save weight)

Thanks a lot for the tips guys!

Also, don't forget to take a trip to http://www.dogcamsport.co.uk/ before you go, get yourself a relatively cheap camera system, and show us your videos when you get back

I've got one nearly permanently wired in my motor, they're pretty cool.

Quote from jibber :

I'll be going to a trackday in france this weekend. So i was wondering...

About eight years ago i was on this track already with the MX-5 i had back then. It was a two day course where the first day consisted of instructors teaching you, and the second day was free driving.

I remember how i was very excited and when it was free driving on the second day, i couldn't get enough. I kept going until the tires got so hot, they would just slide around and lose a lot of grip basically. I went into the pit lane and waited maybe 30 minutes, not more, then went back on track. I did this for the whole morning, and then the same again in the afternoon...

The result of this was completely ruined tires. It looked like they were stressed too much (continuous hard driving after tires get too hot), and not like it was a naturally "outworn" tire.

I think what i'm looking for is a good strategy for driving hard, but not completely ruin the tires... like a time formula maybe?

How long should a session on the track be? And how long the break in the pitlane?

I would like to get the most of it, but also not "torture" the car / material too much. It's not overly expensive, and i have time all day long (free driving only this time), so i can take it easy.

Any other advice is also welcome.
(Helmet, Oil, Gaffa Tape, Camcorder and a Camera... anything else?)

Cheers.

get a friend or someone to bring spare wheels, you will more then likely knacker your rear wheels...


spare fuels and zip ties... duct tape... fire extinguiser also...


other then that - have a nice day.

More pictures:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jibber/

Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrS2000CH

Videos are fixed now (they were 16:9, but youtube made 4:3 out of them).

Top down (wind noise, sorry):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCWrk_OsZWk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvPF8D9zUIY

Top closed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjVQKX4VFj8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbEsvtcnhUE

And if you're wondering why the little hatch in the first videos is faster, he's on semi slicks.

Well it was a clio sport so it's light and fast anyways

Well, not VERY heavy, and not that slow. Light and fast aren't really the correct words.

ok, almoust light and almoust fast. But i think FWD cars have advantages on small tracks though

Bump.

I'm planning to go to the track again hopefully before winter starts (otherwise next spring). This time around i would like to use racing tyres (slicks) on the car, which brings me to the question: Where would be a good place to buy them?

I'm from switzerland, and all i can find are semi-slicks (Toyo, Advan, Yokohama, Pirelli, etc). There's a few places that offer slicks, but i didn't find any for my tyre dimensions, plus they all seem to be on the pricey side.

Can you recommend a place for buying, that would also ship the tyres to switzerland?

The dimensions i'm looking for are 205/55/R16 (front) and 225/50/R16 (back). I've contacted Pirelli switzerland, but they don't offer slicks for these dimensions for 16'' wheels.

Would it generally be a bad idea to run slicks in these dimensions (if i can find any)? It would be a lot easier to find something for 17'' wheels, but if possible, i would really prefer to keep the stock wheels and don't spend idiotic ammounts of cash on bigger (and heavier) wheels.

Any help is appreciated!

I think they work out at 205/630R16 and 225/630R16 (often slicks are quoted with nominal diameter rather than profile percentage).

I can't find any exactly like that, but if you were happy to accept lower profile (and hence smaller diameter and rolling circumference) then you could go to a 210/600R16 and a 230/600R13 (which is the same as a 210/46R16 and 230/42R13).

This will obviously affect ride height and gearing amongst other things, but maybe not by enough to cause problems. The company I found were BMTR, and they'd be Avon slicks - they won't be cheap.

Why do you want slicks? Are you aiming for laptimes or fun on your trackday?

Can't remember the sizes, but I know of someone who races in a bmw E30 3 series, and he managed to get 16" rubber from dunlop as it was all the old cast off's made for the seat lean cupra championship here in the UK which is now defunct. They had about 300 sets of tyres to get rid of! think they may have been 225's.

It's about £700 a set for hard endurance compound Dunlop slicks for the BMWs I work with, a slightly smaller tyre may cost a bit less but I'd still expect you to be paying over £500, the same money for a set of good semi-slicks.

Buying new is crazy if you're just buying them for the sake of going that bit faster, get some part worns in a size that is close enough and find wheels that will fit, most cars running on slicks don't run on standard sized wheels. If you speak nicely to the tyre fitters at race meetings they'll often give away tyres that people have chosen not to take back, the amount of teams that don't bother keeping tyres that would be perfectly good for spares or testing is remarkable. If you can't get rejects from tyre companies then speaking to race teams about buying used tyres is also an option, my mate who races a single seater gets his tyres for a fraction of the cost of buying them new and hald they're barely scrubbed in.

If you haven't driven on semi-slicks I'd recommend trying them first, the difference in grip is phenomenal and in character they're closer to slicks than road tyres, just you can drive on the road with them if you have too and can quite safely race on them in the wet.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I think they work out at 205/630R16 and 225/630R16 (often slicks are quoted with nominal diameter rather than profile percentage).

I can't find any exactly like that, but if you were happy to accept lower profile (and hence smaller diameter and rolling circumference) then you could go to a 210/600R16 and a 230/600R13 (which is the same as a 210/46R16 and 230/42R13).

This will obviously affect ride height and gearing amongst other things, but maybe not by enough to cause problems. The company I found were BMTR, and they'd be Avon slicks - they won't be cheap.

Why do you want slicks? Are you aiming for laptimes or fun on your trackday?

I was hoping to get a reply from you, hehe!

I was thinking about lower profile tyres aswell, but i'm no car expert really, so i wouldn't know if it would cause problems or not. The car is stock (stock suspension, so not ridiculously low or something (see pics above)).

I know such tyres will cost a lot more than normal road tyres or semi-slicks, i was prepared for that.

As for the question why slicks...

I had lots of fun last time with road tyres (see videos), since they allowed for sliding around corners occasionally, which was fun indeed. However, when i wanted to keep traction and go fast, i was struggling to get enough grip out of the tyres (tyres are not wide on this car, and it's heavier than lets say an mx-5). So my thoughts were that slicks might be great fun for going through the corners at a faster pace, especially since the S2000 has nice handling when going fast. I'm not aiming for lap times.

But hey, what do i know, maybe semi-slicks would already be enough?

I think you'd be surprised how good a semi-slick is in terms of grip, without requiring you to get heat in the tyres and lean on them properly. In my experience, slicks are much worse when cold than semi-slicks, and unless you are committed enough to get heat into them (which you might well be!) you might struggle.

The lower profile tyres will tend to lower your top speed, but increase acceleration (much like a shorter final drive ratio). The speedo will probably be wrong as well! In terms of suspension, you'd probably get away with it - the ride suppleness (from taller sidewalls) will decrease, but geometry won't be too much of an issue really.

Slicks are also a little less forgiving - no tread to start moving, giving you notice of a slide. But, if you've played with road tyres and want to go a bit quicker, then it might be worth a try.

The S2000 is a nice car (although I'm not a fan of the Vtec stuff personally), and I'd probably buy one if I had the money. Not many cars get close to the handling of them (apart from MX-5s () and expensive track specials like Sevens or Atoms)

Maybe worth chatting to either BMTR or a 'local' Avon supplier?

I recently bought my 'Silverstone' tyres from here, but they don't list any sizes close to what you want. That's not to say they don't do them though, so could possibly be worth a phone call if you get desperate!

I get my motorcycle race tires from my local trackday club or from the Pirelli race dealer at race weekends. I'd be surprised if you can't do the same with cars.