You are right about the weight transfer. I was racing the Slowstice at LRP (because Im a noob ), and as soon as you get a slide on and then overcorrect even slightly, you end up in a tankslapper that you aren't going to save for love, money or in fact toffee

Nah you can correct it, you just have to be real fast, accurate, and a bit preemptive sometimes - just like RL. in LFS you can sort of think about what you're going to do whilst at 90 degrees to the road, then slowly and lazily make some corrections which always seem to work.

Mild hyperbole perhaps, but real life(tm) is really not as forgiving as LFS, fact is it's closer to what iRacing does to you. I'm not saying it's 100% correct, but I suspect it's closer to being empirically correct, especially the solstice. I don't have experience in a downforce car so I can't really speak as much to that. - F1 thrashing not withstanding. I'd like to hear Tristan's comment on the replay Dave posted.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGrqebP-xGU

Looks like much harder work than in LFS.

I also think, by the way, that comparing the two sims in terms of drivability is tough with LFS's setup issues and ridiculous variability of parameters. I wish we could use LFS's model using the same car on an iRacing track, at least that would reveal some things.

I can't load the iracing site...anyone else having issues?

It just loads half way and thats it. Of course its leaving out the part where I can launch the sim.

Dave, and everyone, I'm curious as to your thoughts about induced understeer in iracing to correct oversteer. No one is really talking about it on the iRacing forums and I'm pretty sure it's because no one wants to admit there's something fishy going on.

Let's say you're turning right, and the rear end steps out. Logic says countersteer to the left to bring the rear end back in. However, in iRacing it's possible to just continue steering hard to the right, inducing understeer, and you won't spin. This seems totally wrong? I know there have been discussions here before about induced understeer but never in the context of iRacing.

I feel like I have a dirty little secret that keeps my car on the track all the time. SR is 4.99 and climbing. If I'm ever at the point where I know the rear is going around and full opposite lock isn't going to bring it back, I just steer hard the other way and get on the brakes. Instead of making the spin worse like one would think, it saves the car. You lose speed for sure, but I can't remember the last time i actually spun out in any of the cars. This can't possibly work so well IRL can it?

Loading fine on my end spanks.

restarting my computer fixed it..that was odd

Quote from titanLS :

Dave, and everyone, I'm curious as to your thoughts about induced understeer in iracing to correct oversteer

I think there's already a thread here discussing that very thing. If I wasn't lazy I'd find it and link it for you.

The reason I didn't renew my iracing subscription was that it seems like they're just tweaking and 'modding' almost, which was exactly what I hoped they wouldn't do.

Instead its more of the usual, the marketing claims the realism, the physics, while probably being improved.. are probably full of errors.

If they're modding, I rather work on my own mods.. Sometimes I think I'm doing a better job at some things, despite being on my own and with an old physics engine, than the millions of Henry manage a full team at iRacing..

I am probably wrong here but the fact that this even crosses my mind is worrying.

I do miss the forums, but 20 a month for forum posting isn't really the idea

I do agree there somewhat.

I like new content as much as the next guy, but the content that exists is currently sufficient IMO whereas there are a number of missing elements that would be nice to see simulated.

Of course I have no idea about their internal operation. Could well be that the content guys have zero to do with the physics guys, so pumping out more content doesn't necessarily mean that other areas are not being worked on. That's likely the case since it's not a one man show.

Does anyone know how many employees they actually have? I'd be interested to see a list of how many people they have and in what positions. To me it doesn't seem like they are a very big operation.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

... Mild hyperbole perhaps, but real life(tm) is really not as forgiving as LFS, fact is it's closer to what iRacing does to you. I'm not saying it's 100% correct, but I suspect it's closer to being empirically correct, especially the solstice. I don't have experience in a downforce car so I can't really speak as much to that. - F1 thrashing not withstanding. I'd like to hear Tristan's comment on the replay Dave posted.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGrqebP-xGU

Looks like much harder work than in LFS.

I also think, by the way, that comparing the two sims in terms of drivability is tough with LFS's setup issues and ridiculous variability of parameters. I wish we could use LFS's model using the same car on an iRacing track, at least that would reveal some things.

I agree with you that LFS is probably more forgiving than real life, and I have driven a TKM in anger around Whilton Mill before, so I have a small idea of what RL is actually like, but the FO8 which I used in my comparison test is probably one of the least forgiving cars in LFS.

As I said before, I adjusted everything on the FO8 to make it very very similar to iRacing's Mazda, so IMO it's a reasonably good comparison. In the video, the way the FO8 is sliding about looks very comparable to Alonso in his renault, but certainly not like iRacing.

I reckon RL is somewhere between the 2 sims if I'm honest.

Quote from titanLS :

Dave, and everyone, I'm curious as to your thoughts about induced understeer in iracing to correct oversteer

I have done it in iRacing in extreme situations, but normally I prefer to balance the car through countersteering, but it certainly seems less effective (edit: countersteering that is) a style in iRacing..

but didn't they had TC back then with the F1's? Dunno if that makes any difference but hey....

Quote from Scrabby :

but didn't they had TC back then with the F1's? Dunno if that makes any difference but hey....

That should only affect situations where rear traction for power is an issue.

I've made my 354th video comparison now, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7T3WzOSck

Quote from DaveWS :

That should only affect situations where rear traction for power is an issue.

I've made my 354th video comparison now, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7T3WzOSck

I say it again, too much opposite lock.
Here's a hotlap I recorded today where I induced bit too much oversteer coming into last corner at 200km/h, it recovered just fine with some countersteering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOL7qh5rop4&

I think that is a good video to compare to.

That did not appear to be sideways at all in the sim...but if that was real life it'd be pucker factor 11 right there. There was hardly any countersteer dialed in..but it is very significant that the wheel was already straight while in the center of the turn. The angle of the car was such that it *blah blah blah* I could make shit up and sound smart here but it wasn't really going anywhere.


The steering sensitivity at center in the mazda I think is too high in iracing. I think I'm gonna make a vid using volker's setup because he is well known for sliding anything. Pretty sure he drifted his baby stroller as a child. (probably an uneccesary video but I'm feeling left out of the fun).

Quote from Crommi :

I say it again, too much opposite lock.
Here's a hotlap I recorded today where I induced bit too much oversteer coming into last corner at 200km/h, it recovered just fine with some countersteering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOL7qh5rop4&

Nice lap. But you didn't countersteer at all during that lap in my book. You had some corner entry oversteer into the final turn, but you left the steering alone and the front just washed itself out. Is that how I'm supposed to drive?! It doesn't bloody work like that IRL, you have to actually correct slides by actually turning the wheel.

Anyway, you're missing the point. My point is the guy in the real car overcorrected just as I did, but his car didn't snap from side to side within 0.00001 seconds!!, like it did to me in iRacing! IT'S NOT RIGHT.

Edit: Gah, new page again, here's the video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7T3WzOSck

Edit2:

Quote from spanks :

The steering sensitivity at center in the mazda I think is too high in iracing.

Understatement of the centuary. Well actually it's not the steering, it's the whole car. It's the most sensitive thing I've ever driven in any sim ever.

Quote from DaveWS :

That should only affect situations where rear traction for power is an issue.

I've made my 354th video comparison now, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7T3WzOSck

That's a great video BTW and it reinforces to me that nothing dodgy happened there. That was waaay too much countersteer, and then when the car did what you told it too you're upset about it.

The comparison to the RL footage is perfect because it shows that even with more accurate inputs than you were providing (he can feel it physically and has an advantage), he STILL lost the car. His steering was moving exactly with the car, yours wasn't.

In the slow motion you can see it very clearly I'm glad you put that in. Curious to see what others think though too.

edit: You responded already - countersteering happened in that he steered away from the turn and not into it; even if his wheel didn't go past center. There was no understeer there (front didn't wash itself out). In fact, that's exactly how you would want it to handle - with the throttle.

Actually, I did use just a couple degrees of opposite lock as you can see steering wheel go just over centerpoint and back. Point being, 90 degrees worth of opposite lock back and forth would only unsettle the car and crash out like it did on your previous video. Turning away from the corner but not going overboard with it.

Spanks: Volker is super smooth with his driving, sliding is hardly noticeable.
He posted this week's replay in here.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

edit: You responded already - countersteering happened in that he steered away from the turn and not into it; even if his wheel didn't go past center. There was no understeer there (front didn't wash itself out). In fact, that's exactly how you would want it to handle - with the throttle.

A real car should (theoretically) continue to oversteer until you've turned the front wheels in the opposite direction more than the angle the rear wheels are slipping.

Quote from Crommi :

Actually, I did use just a couple degrees of opposite lock as you can see steering wheel go just over centerpoint and back. Point being, 90 degrees worth of opposite lock back and forth would only unsettle the car and crash out like it did on your previous video. Turning away from the corner but not going overboard with it.

... and if you attempted to correct the equivelent slide IRL with such little countersteering, nothing would happen, you'd carry on oversteering until you crash.

Quote from DaveWS :

A real car should (theoretically) continue to oversteer until you've turned the front wheels in the opposite direction more than the angle the rear wheels are slipping.



... and if you attempted to correct the equivelent slide IRL with such little countersteering, nothing would happen, you'd carry on oversteering until you crash.

Both of those points are not inherantly true and depend heavily on the setup...

You never come around corners in LFS with neutral steering under power?! Come on now

Not arguing with you BTW, I appreciate those videos and I've been watching the one you just posted over and over trying to find some fault. Watching it in fast motion in inconclusive; there is a shit load of steering movement going on but the slow motion shows the real story - a logical reaction to your inputs IMO.

Hehe I was joking about volker. Using his setups, and others like his, have made me a much better sim racer. Really forces you to be smooth and have minimal steering inputs. His setups remind me of karting...smaller inputs of the wheel = faster times.

As usual I turn on fraps and drive like a complete tool I needed to record last night when I wasn't trying. No video for me.

The mazda acts like it has 0 inertia. It feels like there is nothing carrying it to the outside of the turn, and it is frightening to turn the wheel most of the time.

Its still way fun to drive and is most of the time a pretty damn accurate representation of the real thing.

Dave I'm curious how much FFB you're using with your wheel.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

That's a great video BTW and it reinforces to me that nothing dodgy happened there. That was waaay too much countersteer, and then when the car did what you told it too you're upset about it.

I completely disagree. If you watch the slow-mo of me, you will see that there is a moment of oversteer before it all goes horribly wrong. The first bit of oversteer is at 32-34 seconds in, which I correct with say 120 degrees of countersteering, and for a split second, the car is neutral. Then it goes back into a 2nd period of oversteer, which I try to correct again with EXACTLY the same amount of countersteer, and it decides to suddenly snap the other way, then a millisecond later, back to the right again...

I would have to agree with Dave on this. He made a totally natural countersteer to try and correct the slide, and it just snapped away from him.

He countersteered at the correct angle for the slide but it snapped him away, not correct physics IMO.

Quote from DaveWS :

I completely disagree. If you watch the slow-mo of me, you will see that there is a moment of oversteer before it all goes horribly wrong. The first bit of oversteer is at 32-34 seconds in, which I correct with say 120 degrees of countersteering, and for a split second, the car is neutral. Then it goes back into a 2nd period of oversteer, which I try to correct again with EXACTLY the same amount of countersteer, and it decides to suddenly snap the other way, then a millisecond later, back to the right again...

Nah Dave, here's what I see:

Initial over steer, heavily but somewhat appropriately dealt with. The problem comes at 37 seconds. The car was settled enough to just drive out; although you didn't seem to agree and countersteered 90 DEG to the left. This was WAY to much for the attitude of the car. You picked up that it was listening to you and by 38 seconds were steering 90 DEG RIGHT. The car listened again and started to lose it and then by second 39 you had about 165 DEG LEFT countersteer, but the car had enough of you by then and said piss on it.

Watch closely - and compare it to the solstice drifting video I posted before - your inputs and the car's response are exactly what he did to initiate drifts in the solstice, you just happened to do it on corner exit instead of entry .

Quote from Wilko868 :

He countersteered at the correct angle for the slide but it snapped him away, not correct physics IMO.

Not in the slightest, the input that initiated that slide should never have happened; it's what caused it.

It's all about second 36.5 to 37.