Quote from Mustafur :

hmm i wonder how it got him in the skull.

The visor came off on the left side and the spring went though.

[Yoda]That is why you fail.[/Yoda]

I've been saying it for ages, but if you can't be bothered to learn about F1, or to read articles (even the basic, initial reports) about this accident specifically then why bother trying to contribute to an F1 thread? It's not like I have a vendetta against you, or dislike you personally, but nearly everything you ever write with respect to Formula One is utterly wrong.

Just so you know the visor didn't come of his helmet until well AFTER he'd come to a stop. The spring hit his helmet ABOVE, and to the left of, the eye aperture. The material was able to withstand the impact (change of momentum) and spread it over a larger area thus reducing any internal force spikes (although the shock of impact was enough to knock Felipe unconscious). However, the deforming structure did move enough to break his skull in one or more places, before (or possibly during) his brain hit the inside of his skull in around the same place. Damage to cells, veins and capilliaries and skin, plus the basic reaction of a living body after an injury, caused the swelling that currently impedes his vision.

If you didn't know any part of that then you shouldn't be bothering to talk about the accident or subsequent changes in the name of safety in an F1 thread. Except perhaps on a childs' forum.

I have looked at what these helments are made of and basically most of the upgrades in the past 10 years, sure most of which happened after massa incident but thats not the issue. the issue is massa was hit on the eye brow below the part of which the helments outersurface was protecting, the part of which got him is in the visors view.

The visor was obviously loose which could of contributed it to of gotten to his skull in this way.

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mt ... kilpailut/2009/755343.jpg

btw how does this contribute to me not knowing F1.

Also you claim im getting sucked into false media reports, well when an Previous F1 driver who had a deadly serious accident goes into detail about the safety precautions of which most likely saved hes life i think I would trust that over an Ameuter open wheel racer, maybe thats just stupid of me but really this guy only drove in Formula 1, and only had an helment in F1.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/he ... detail/090808095648.shtml

A visor is just a piece of clear plastic, it does not have magical protection abilities against great big lumps of metal. I doubt the visor would have helped much if it had remained in place. Just because a visor can keep a few flies and pieces of dirt at bay dosen't mean it can completely stop the progress of a 1kg spring towards someone's face. If it had stayed in place the spring would have probrably punched a hole in the visor anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the suspension piece that killed Ayrton Senna go through his visor, despite the visor not detaching from the helmet. I know the strength and design of materials has probrably improved since 1994, but visors still aren't exactly bullet proof I'd imagine. Another example being Helmuth Marko, a stone went through his visor and took out one of his eyes, that was in 1972 though.

Quote from Mustafur :

I have looked at what these helments are made of and basically most of the upgrades in the past 10 years, sure most of which happened after massa incident but thats not the issue. the issue is massa was hit on the eye brow below the part of which the helments outersurface was protecting, the part of which got him is in the visors view.

Quote from Mustafur :

I have looked at what these helments are made of and basically most of the upgrades in the past 10 years, sure most of which happened after massa incident but thats not the issue.

What does that sentence mean? You start of on one point, get to the comma, and summarise a different point, neither of which make sense.

Quote from Mustafur :

The visor was obviously loose which could of contributed it to of gotten to his skull in this way.

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mt ... kilpailut/2009/755343.jpg

Firstly, could HAVE for fecks sake.

Secondly, the visor mounts were damaged, but the visor wasn't detacted from it's mountings until the marshal(s) arrived. You cannot see any broken skin in that photo - that's dried/drying blood from the wound behind the helmet lining. The skin was broken by deformation of the helmet as it dissipated the impact loadings of the spring.

Quote from Mustafur :

btw how does this contribute to me not knowing F1.

Well, it's about F1, and you don't know about it. That seems fairly clear cut to me

Quote from Mustafur :

Also you claim im getting sucked into false media reports, well when an Previous F1 driver who had a deadly serious accident goes into detail about the safety precautions of which most likely saved hes life i think I would trust that over an Ameuter open wheel racer, maybe thats just stupid of me but really this guy only drove in Formula 1, and only had an helment in F1.

At no point does Luciano suggest that the visor caused any injuries, or detached from the helmet prior to coming to rest. He just says that the visor is something that needs to be looked at because 'what if' the spring had hit a bit lower.
However, Luciano is a racing driver. Not an engineer. He knows as much about the number of screws required as you. He didn't only drive in F1, and he didn't only have a helmet in F1. He also raced, and had helmets, in other categories too.

But if you want to believe, falsely, that the visor fell off due to the impact, caused all his injuries, and was because of a lack of screws that you don't even know what they do, then be my guest. It'll just prove, again, for the umpteenth time, that you are completely clueless about F1 and anything to do with it.

Im not saying the visor can stop all damage being done but in itself can absorb more contact and if mounted strongly can absorb more if the visor its self stays intact before the mountings giveway.

Im pretty sure the visor it self is much stronger then the materials used in 94.

and to tristin. At no point did I EVER say the visor caused injuries, i said maybe if mounted more stongly it could of absorbed more contact, we have no frontal camera of the collision so not even your self with your so called endless proof factory can confirm that the visor wasn't detached fully untill after the incident.

have you worked on these helments? have you seen them in the flesh, do you know every material that they are made of?

Im sure if you did you would be in the positon to talk as you do.

and please stop ridiculing my spelling and puntuaction as a form of insult, becuase it just makes your self look like an ass.

I agree, a stronger visor would be useful in some situations, however rare. But it wouldn't have helped 1% in the case of Massa. Firstly, there are marshal/doctors reports that the visor was removed by them, not by the accident, and secondly we can see on the onboard footage. The visor wasn't required to absorb any contact.

The visors won't be as strong as the composite structure used in 1994, although the visors will now be stronger than the visors of 1994.

Have I worked on these helmets? No. Have I seem them in the flesh? Yes. Do I know every material they are made of? No, but then one doesn't need to do draw basic, sensible conclusions. Do you know every material used in a Ferrari V12 engine? No? Then how do you know how it works? Oh yes, because the principles are the same.

The 'could have' is a pet peeve. I'm generally quite happy ridiculing how little you know about this sport, it's history, the technical background, the skills required by participants, or the basic 'facts' of a specific occurance (i.e. Massa's accident).

It's widely reported that the ECU cut the engine because it 'detected' braking and throttle openings at the same time above a certain level. Do you believe this to be accurate?

Quote from Mustafur :

Im not saying the visor can stop all damage being done but in itself can absorb more contact and if mounted strongly can absorb more if the visor its self stays intact before the mountings giveway.

Im pretty sure the visor it self is much stronger then the materials used in 94.

and to tristin. At no point did I EVER say the visor caused injuries, i said maybe if mounted more stongly it could of absorbed more contact, we have no frontal camera of the collision so not even your self with your so called endless proof factory can confirm that the visor wasn't detached fully untill after the incident.

But your argument is pointless because wether the visor detached from its mountings or not, it would have had virtually no effect on the outcome of the accident and the resulting injuries. The spring did not hit the visor directly, most of the blow was directed at the helmet just above the visor.

If the spring did hit the visor directly, then personally I would rather it bent and snapped off its mountings, hopefully absorbing some of the blow, than it shattering and embedding itself in my face, while still remaining fixed to its mountings.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Do you know every material used in a Ferrari V12 engine?

Ferrari V12 engines are made of 100% pure awesome.

Quote from Mustafur :

Meh im sick of this crap. hes alive and recovering it was a freak accident lets leave it at that, there are a few improvments made to the helment now to improve the unlikelyhood of the visor doing that agian.

I still think thats its a good thing that where talking about the visor being a safety issue and not the tracks or cars(as much as they used to be) it shows how much safer F1 is these days.

You'd rather get hit by a possibly hot object that won't pass through your helmet? I'd rather it broke my visor and passed through to be honest..

Quote from 5haz :

Ferrari V12 engines are made of 100% pure awesome.

Good answer! What is the raw material from which pure awesome is made?


Awesome Ore!

Oresome? :doh:

Quote from 5haz :

But your argument is pointless because wether the visor detached from its mountings or not, it would have had virtually no effect on the outcome of the accident and the resulting injuries. The spring did not hit the visor directly, most of the blow was directed at the helmet just above the visor.

If the spring did hit the visor directly, then personally I would rather it bent and snapped off its mountings, hopefully absorbing some of the blow, than it shattering and embedding itself in my face, while still remaining fixed to its mountings.



Ferrari V12 engines are made of 100% pure awesome.

ands thats the thing im trying to say, its had minimal contact and was detached from its mountings.

Quote from Mustafur :

ands thats the thing im trying to say, its had minimal contact and was detached from its mountings.

Well what would you have to stop that happening again? I'm sure Shuberth would love to know as well as the other major helmet manufactures.

It had minimal contact and was detached from its mountings AFTER THE ACCIDENT BY MEDICAL PERSONNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which bit don't you get. The fact that even if he had no visor it wouldn't have made the accident any worse, or the fact that it didn't break off in the accident. I can probably, with a bit of effort, spell it out to you in REALLY simple terms. Then, if you still don't get it, I'll call up a friend of a cousin who is 3 and get them to explain the simple concept.

Quote from Mustafur :

ands thats the thing im trying to say, its had minimal contact and was detached from its mountings.

So what, it probrably helped absorb some energy by detaching, if it even did that is, the jury is still out on that one, some sources suggest it did, others don't.

What you don't seem to understand is that although the purpose of the visor is to protect the driver's face from the wind/insects and small debris perhaps, it is not part of the crash helmet's crash absorbing structure, it is not designed to withstand massive blows and remain completely sound, there just isn't really any transparent material that would be strong enough that wouldn't be prohibitively expensive (as far as I know). I would imagine this is why the opening on fully enclosed racing helmet is as small as possible.

And so you can't say that its completely unacceptable that the visor (may have!) broken, its a fact of life that if you hit a visor with a 1kg spring at high speed, its going to fail. Its one of the risks of motor racing, there are risks which can be reduced and risks that can't and this is one such risk that you can't really do much about.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It had minimal contact and was detached from its mountings AFTER THE ACCIDENT BY MEDICAL PERSONNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which bit don't you get. The fact that even if he had no visor it wouldn't have made the accident any worse, or the fact that it didn't break off in the accident. I can probably, with a bit of effort, spell it out to you in REALLY simple terms. Then, if you still don't get it, I'll call up a friend of a cousin who is 3 and get them to explain the simple concept.

Although Massa's carbon fibre Schuberth withstood the force of the 800 gram steel spring that struck at more than 265kph, the left visor mounting was knocked off.

The visor only came off when the doctor pulled on it, but the left side was already detached. This is what you fail to understand.

/all discussion about the friggin helment

Even if that's the case, and I don't think it is, but I have no proof the other way, IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE TO THE ACCIDENT.

The visor could have been replaced with paper, and he'd have the same injuries (ignoring damage from flies and rubber).
The visor could be held on with 635 screws, and he'd have the same injuries (ignoring the weight of the screws).

You seem to be concentrating on this visor as though it's not strong enough. But it's plenty strong enough, because it stopped flies and rubber hitting him in the face. It isn't designed to withstand being hit by kilogram masses, it didn't get hit by a kilogram mass, and there's no point making it withstand kilogram mass impacts.

I know there is a brain between your ears somewhere. I just know it. Why not engage it?

Im not saying that at all I was saying is ''maybe'' it ''could'' of been mounted stronger.

Hence ''Maybe''.

Thats all i had to say about the visor.

I never mentioned anything about the visor being able to withstand the whole force, all i said is ''maybe'' if it was mounted stronger a visor could abosrb more contact. all of which I have said maybe none of which did i confirm it would do which means i am confirming that i do not think its fact.

Thats all im going to say about this.

Quote from Mustafur :

Im not saying that at all I was saying is ''maybe'' it ''could'' of been mounted stronger.

Hence ''Maybe''.

Thats all i had to say about the visor.

I never mentioned anything about the visor being able to withstand the whole force, all i said is ''maybe'' if it was mounted stronger a visor could abosrb more contact. all of which I have said maybe none of which did i confirm it would do which means i am confirming that i do not think its fact.

Thats all im going to say about this.

Somehow I doubt it would, by breaking off its attachment and bending, it even perhaps diverted some of the energy away from Massa's head, in a vaguely similar way to how crumple zones on cars work. So perhaps things are better how they are currently with regards to helmet visors.

The only way the risk of that kind of accident can be reduced is by banning open top cars, either that or making helmets out of lead, which would do a whole world of good to a drivers neck, and would probrably decapitate in a crash.

Its sad really, that it may soon come to this.

Come to what? Motor racing is dangerous.

Quote from 5haz :

Come to what? Motor racing is dangerous.

I know It is, but im talking about banning open top open wheelers, that would be quite sad.

Quote from Mustafur :

I know It is, but im talking about banning open top open wheelers, that would be quite sad.

You've really not got too worry about that, I'm confident that will never happen ...

There are far more dangerous pursuits than motorsport don't get silly talking about it getting banned.

Hockey, horse riding, rugby, boxing etc.... are all more dangerous yet no one is singnig the ban them tune there (apart frmo boxing)

Yeah but thats not the issue, motorsport can be made safer, most of those sports can't be(as much or barely at all).

The only reason why it isn't as dangerous is down to the safety measures taken. 50 or so years ago it was much more dangerous then basically everything there.

Have 50+ people died in a rugby game when one of the players fell into the spectators?

rallying in the 80s and still today is much more dangerous then everything you have shown imo.

Quote from Mustafur :

yeah but thats not the issue, motorsport can be made safer, most of those sports can't be(as much or barely at all).

Tell us what can be done to make it safer? Closed-cockpit racing cars, Formula One is all about the essence open-cockpit racing. No one wants to see people going around in a closed cockpit, They want to see the drivers in open-cockpit racing cars.

Then there's the question of safety if a drivers in a crashes. What happens if the closed-cockpit won't open?

Quote from Mustafur :

The only reason why it isn't as dangerous is down to the safety measures taken. 50 or so years ago it was much more dangerous then basically everything there.

What point are you trying to make with this?

Edit: You said in a previous post that it's too dangerous, now you're saying it's not as dangerous due to the safety measures taking. Please make up your mind.

Quote from Mustafur :

has 50 people died in a rugby game to one of the plays falling into the spectators?

Not that I currently know of, but a lot more people have died with stadiums collapsing than the 26 drivers who've died behind the wheel of a Formula One car.

Just out of curiosity where are you getting the figure 50 from?

Quote from Mustafur :

rallying in the 80s and still today is much more dangerous then everything you have shown imo.

That's obvious isn't it, he wasn't comparing motorsport though, he was comparing other sports.

As you've said previously you can make motorsport can be made safer, how can you make rallying safer? Asides removing all of the trees and spectators ..?