Quote from carey :

Did you not notice the word INCORRECTLY! Take the wrong line into Eau Rouge and see what happens.

You'll let off the throttle and correct it if you know how to drive...? It depends on the situation, if its a mistake like getting on a curb and being thrown sideways it wont be the same as getting into it wide by accident and understeering for example. If you see that you took it wide then you'll let off the throttle and lose time but still make it through alive..

Quote from carey :

Did you not notice the word INCORRECTLY! Take the wrong line into Eau Rouge and see what happens.

You're saying that as if there was only one line through a corner, as if every other line would automatically make you crash. Going into a corner too fast or too slow is incorrect, going too wide or too tight is incorrect, but none of those mistakes have to result in a crash.
A car doesn't corner automatically, if you let go of the steering wheel mid-corner, you're very unlikely to make it because all driver inputs still do something to the car.

Well, when I was 14yo I also 'knew' that if you over-reach grip limit, you go outside like on ice and die on the tree or smth...

Quote from carey :

Err... in real life you don't have the chance to correct a car if you've approached a corner incorrectly.

So we've narrowed this statement down to being true ONLY if it's Piquet Jr into Eau Rouge on the wrong line, right?

Tell me young squire, what driving and/or racing experience do you have? I know, sitting in my comfy chair right now, when to brake in my race car for Riches corner at Snetterton (a last 100mph+ right hander at my local circuit), when to get on the throttle, when to apex (1.5 times!) etc. I could talk you through every nuance of the corner. Yet despite knowing this, and knowing my car quite well, I still go into and have to correct tiny little slides, rotations or whatever. This isn't because I'm rubbish (though of course that's a factor), but because the track and my tyres (and my chassis, and the wind and so on) are never the same. You are constantly feeling, adjusting and correcting. Even when you do it perfectly.

In that respect I'm no different to anyone who has ever driven a race car. I just do it a bit later, a bit less subtley, and a little less accurately than the top line drivers (except, perhaps Piquet Jr! ). Every racecar driver has always ALWAYS planned for the corner ahead, gone into it knowing exactly what will happen, and then made sure the car does it by correcting everything.

If you are driving sims that lock your outcome at the point of turn in, no matter what you do within the corner, then those sims are wrong. I cannot think of any that are that bad!

In short your statement "Err... in real life you don't have the chance to correct a car if you've approached a corner incorrectly" is false.

Quote from carey :

That’s a matter of opinion. Usually smoother drivers are faster (unless you’re having to drive beyond the cars capabilities).

It's a matter of fact. A human cannot physically drive to the exact slip angle equilibrium of a tire 100% of the time. The time not spent on the limit is spent over or under it. The more experienced a driver, the less perceptible his mistakes will be. My idea of an "incorrect" corner is a matter of a couple inches, Micheal Shumacher's is a matter of a couple millimeters. And he drives on much bigger tracks than I do.

Quote from carey :

Is this the quickest way?

You and Degats both need to read the entire thread, as this started out as a disagreement between myself and, Tristan where he said the quickest way round a corner was to make your corrections when you had taken a corner (and I debated that top-draw drivers try and make these before as it’s the quickest way round).

FYI I have read the entire thread and it was quite a while before the best or fastest way round the corner was mentioned. Most of the discussion has been about what is and isn't done and what can and can't be done. Your comments referencing damage done to the cars by people you know, cars needing to be set up specifically to be able to drift etc that, in quantity at least, outweigh any reference to speed make it sound like you are arguing what can and can't be done. This in particular comes to mind:

Quote from carey :

Err... in real life and, other (possibly) more realistic games, you don't have the chance to correct a car if you've approached a corner incorrectly.

My (and tristan's from what I understand) point was that you do have a chance to correct, simple as. There was no reference made in context to whether it's a good way to drive round a corner, but the fact is that no-one is capable of entering every corner correctly every time.

The very best racing drivers can set up more or less for a corner before entering, fine, but due to imperfections in the human race and chaos theory it is very very rare for anyone to make a corner on the limit without correcting in some way or another. Even the smoothest drivers are correcting and reacting all the time.


Anywho, now I understand what you thought you were arguing about rather than what you were actually saying, I'll leave you to it.

So we have put the wrong words on your mouth... I will give you a chance to expand so we know what you mean...

Quote from carey :

Err... in real life and, other (possibly) more realistic games, you don't have the chance to correct a car if you've approached a corner incorrectly.

Please expand. I read this to mean it is IMPOSSIBLE to correct mistakes mid corner. What do you mean.

NOTE: There is an ideal line in racing BUT every race driver should be able to use the wrong line in a corner or they SHOULD NOT BE ON THE TRACK! This is the nature of racing because the ideal line is not always available!

Quote from carey :

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Formula 1 drivers (well the majority of them) seem to know when they’re approaching a corner incorrectly and, adjust before hand.

EVERY race driver preps before a corner BUT this is racing so no corner entry is PERFECT. This is again the nature of racing. Every driver MUST be able to adapt to changing situations or again they SHOULD NOT BE ON THE TRACK!

Quote from carey :

I wonder what makes you a better racer overall though, the games that reward an outright attack approach, or those that get you thinking about the twisty bits before they arrive.

A good racer needs both. They need to prepare BEFORE but then adapt because of situations. Out braking and hence being off line is a standard overtake practice! So you need the aggression to out brake then hold your line and possibly give the other driver space around the corner. All requires CONSTANT adaptation through the corner.

Quote from carey :

Drift cars are completely different. When other young people I know try and drift in their cars, they end up curbing the thing!

You can drift any RWD car.... ANY RWD car! This is FACT and impossible to dispute at all. If you know people who try and drift but can't that just means lack of skill/experience. It does not prove that drifting any car is impossible lol

Quote from Degats :

I'll just leave this here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU

Degats.. how dare you. That is just impossible lol

Quote from carey :

Yes, but you also see some unbelievable driving where with one smooth input (ie; not Felipe Massa in his Sauber days), they enter a corner and exit without any drama.

Because there are differences in style on how people drive. Some slightly under drive and some slightly overdrive their cars. Both are valid techniques!

Quote from carey :

Tell all the people I know who have bent chassis arms and broken drive shafts then.

People pushing cars beyond their skill level you mean

Quote from carey :

Is this the quickest way?

You and Degats both need to read the entire thread, as this started out as a disagreement between myself and, Tristan where he said the quickest way round a corner was to make your corrections when you had taken a corner (and I debated that top-draw drivers try and make these before as it’s the quickest way round).

Actually the quickest way ONLY came up in THIS post. Trist just pointed out that when you put to limits you need to correct. Even if they are just subtle micro adjustments that are not really visible on cam etc.

+1 for too much grip with road tyres / cold ones.


Read the entire thread and found the common misunderstanding "The fastest driver drive at the limit so 0.1kph+ and you'll go wide out of the track." What's the cause ? Popular "perfact geometric line" theory ( which is important for beginners ) ?

Quote from The Very End :

Sorry for hijaking this thread, but the one that said LFS is a sim and not a game.. I disagree. Even if it tries to simulate the real life racing it's still a game. I would say it's somewhere between a simulator and a game, but denying it's a game just isn't right, in my eyes.

And lol at the drug reply

+1

But ... real life racing events are called games, why can't sim events be called this way ?! If it's not a game and not for fun, why do you drive ?

Because someone on this forums belives they are a GOD in the car because they can drive the XRT around Blackwood..
Sorry for sounding so arrogant, but it's true. Get down from your horses, it's a game and if you think that winning in the game makes you _teh_ all-knowing-shit, then I'm sorry to say your pretty much wrong.

:munching_

bloody hell!

Did everyone on this forum just become 12?

QUIT THE BICKERING ALREADY.

Quote from carey :

I agree, but my idea of a wrong line is one where you end up in the kitty litter.

Well then, sorry to say, and I don't want you to take this badly, but it appears to me that you're not that experienced. I got over the "saving my life" phase after my first race weekend, but I had 4 coaches to help me there. "Saving my life" phase being what I call the phase in which the driver has such bad lines and car control that he'll spin off if he makes a mistake. I've found that as I progress as a driver so does my standard. Like I said before, my idea of a bad turn-in or a botched exit is a matter of inches (on a small kart track). I certainly wasn't up to that standard my first day out...

Feel free to prove me wrong about your experience, however.

Quote from carey :

I’ve heard a lot of racers say they actually go quicker, when during a race, they try and back off by not pushing so hard.

Here's one that agrees with that. However, it's simply due to driver psychology. Trying means thinking, thinking means slight loss of control. Ever been in "the zone"? When driving becomes unconscious, you get in the zone, you relax. You're not over-thinking things. My best driving is always done when I'm thinking least about actually driving, in robot mode. I'm thinking about what my opponent is going to do, recalculating points scores, planning my attacks and defenses. And I drive a lot better that way. I've never been a great qualifier because I think too much about going fast.

Agreed about the relaxing.

At my last race when I dropped down the order after a stupid spin, I basically had given up. This meant I was driving in a relaxed manner, with no trace of red mist. And that meant, in the end, I was several seconds per lap faster than anyone else. Had I been TRYING to fight back, or had I not spun and was TRYING to win then I would wager I'd have gone slower.

It was a great psychological lesson, and one I hope to make use of at all subsequent races. Qualifying? Pfff, I'll just cruise around and see where I end up...

Quote from tristancliffe :

It was a great psychological lesson, and one I hope to make use of at all subsequent races. Qualifying? Pfff, I'll just cruise around and see where I end up...

lol. I don't have that luxury... I'm competing to win a ride in an F3 car like yours!

Quote from carey :

That kind of is the problem. Either I’m wrong, your wrong, or we are both wrong but we can’t both be right (and really there’s no way to prove it with words).

Well that was cryptic. All you gotta say is how long you race(d)...

Quote from carey :

Of course, I wake up in the zone but I’d elaborate a bit on what you’re saying; you have to try at first otherwise you would never find the limit, but once you have an understanding of the car, track it does become natural and the by-product of this is speed (not the drug).

See now we're getting somewhere. I agree with that. I never found the limit by staying under it (though, it did take me a while to realize this before I shook myself and pushed!)

lol agreed everyone seems 12 lately

all i can say is this anyone that compairs a road car in lfs to driving a road car on the ROAD has no fing idea how a road car is ment to handle. Once u have taken ur RWD road car on a track you will see just how slippery the tyres really are.


PS my road car can easly fry the rears around a corner at 130kph in 4th gear at 2500 rpm

Quote from Juusom95 :

There's not enough grip!!!
Especially RAC

Progression is vital in LFS and since everything bar Good equipment ( i.e g25) hasnt got it....


yeah, foot to the floor racing works in CMD and NFS but sadly not in lfs.

this is funny, actually me and friends (not monica, joey,...) were talking about how LITTLE grip have GTR cars in LFS. they prefer simbins and RBR, because they feel that those cars have much more grip than cars in LFS and also real life cars have much more grip than cars in LFS. i wasn't sure about anything, because I'm not reallife racer, i don't have a car, but i was pretty sure that in LFS is grip around OK (except overheated tyres, which is bullshit imho).

also problem in lfs is that there are fictional cars. how do you know that if you would build a FZR it would behave the same and will have the same grip as you can reach (or you are not able to reach) in LFS. if someone could explain me this i would be very happy (in short - how do we know these informations are correct)

Because there are comparible cars out there, with similar drivetrain layouts, similar weights, similar sizes, similar suspension setups. It's not the work of a genius to see that a similar car is likely to handle in a similar way. Besides, this isn't about handling, it's about grip. And that can be measured by seeing the maximum obtainable lateral/longitudinal accelerations on a skid pan or circuit.

Hence, when we say the XFG can pull more Gs than a similar hatchback in real life on road tyres we can see that the XFG has too much grip. Do the same for all the cars, and you'll see that LFS isn't far off in most cases. The claim that LFS is like driving on ice is absolutely baseless these days, and is much more likely that 'other sims' have a driving on glue feeling. Not all of them do of course

Yes, that bugs me too. But then it's probably to stop you intentionally cutting. T1 at Silverstone and the big wide tarmac section on Sebring would both be rife with it, and it's easier to create a massively frictious surface than program some sort of marshalls to watch you.

Yeah, we need more grip, because we need to drive with 300mph through a corner.
[/sarcasm]

i kind of agree with the guy who made this thread but i think what he means (if he dosent i think it anyway), that lfs's tyres overheats way too easy.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Besides, this isn't about handling, it's about grip. And that can be measured by seeing the maximum obtainable lateral/longitudinal accelerations on a skid pan or circuit.

Hence, when we say the XFG can pull more Gs than a similar hatchback in real life on road tyres we can see that the XFG has too much grip.

I would like to interject here some bits of into that's been on my mind (and that I tested) as I read this thread.

People talk about pulling 1+Gs in the XFG around Blackwood, and it's quite easy to sustain 1.1-1.2Gs in the corners on a good race set with Road Supers on.

Then they say "this is far more than a comparable road car" like they actually have taken a Civic (or whatever, not necessarily a Civic) out to a track and tested it. Maybe some have but I really doubt that more than 5% of the people in this thread have done that. When I say track I mean a real track that has real banked corners like LFS. I don't mean an AutoX session where it's a flat parking lot.

What they might be mentally comparing it to is skid pad lateral G values posted in magazines, usually in the .7-1.0 range for road cars, far below the 1.1-1.2G that is very easy to achieve on BL1 with the XFG. I went and took Bob Smiths road setup pack and tried some testing. With the XFG I get a maximum of .82-.84 around the skidpad. That is with Road Normals, as in what a Civic would probably wear. Those values actually seem pretty accurate.

I then tested with a race set (a BL1 hotlap set I think) and got maximum lateral Gs of 1.02-1.03Gs. .2Gs from a tire/suspension change, I have no idea how realistic that is to be honest, but it is something to think about.

My point is not necessarily that LFS has the right amount of grip or that it doesn't, but please if you're going to argue about it compare apples to apples. Skidpad ratings are going to be lower than what you see on a track easily. Skidpads are flat, BL1s turns are ALL banked even if only slightly which helps a lot in cornering. You ARE going to see +1Gs even on a road car on banked corners if they're wearing sticky tires (Road Supers).

The numbers might be good, but sometimes I have the sensation the feeling is just not right. Cars in LFS respond to slowly to direction change and you slide too much if you slam the breaks.
It might be me, don't know... I didn't make a study on this.

Quote from Juusom95 :

There's not enough grip!!!
Especially RAC

This is simulation, not an arcade game like NFS... [-.-]

Why not practice driving the RAC? You'll get the hang of it some day