Hi,

Since a quick search didn't reveal the answer, I'm posting this simple question here.

I'm just curious. I remember in previous versions your in-car head could turn around up to 180 degrees to see behind you. But later patches have changed it to be only 90 degrees maximum. I initially figured it was to add realism as a real person can't turn around their head 180 degrees.

However, it seems that 90 degrees is pretty limiting. It's not even possible to check your blind spot.

I'm just curious why it was done this way.

Does it have to do something with helmets and race car seats/seatbelts not letting the driver turn around as much as in a real car?

I know a human head can't rotate 180 degrees, but together with your body/shoulders and by moving eyes, it is easily possible to look almost directly behind you, isn't it? At least in a real street-legal car it is.

So why 90 degrees? Is this change explained in the patch notes somewhere, any words from the developers, or is there an obvious answer to it...?

Thanks. Sorry if it's a commonly discussed topic, but I didn't find anything in my [brief] search.

P.S. While I'm making a post here... Why don't look left/right keys have some sort of effect in external-camera mode? >.< This is more of a gripe than a genuine question though.

The look behind button allows you to see your blind spot. also I find 90 degrees is more than enough.

But it's all personal opinion


What I want to know, Does anyone use smooth look? I find it impossibly slow and frustrating when it's on haha.

As far as I can remember, a patch a while back changed "look behind" to pressing both of the left/right look keys. This can't be used in race cars such as GTRs and Single Seaters due to the reasons you described.

Quote from shurcooL :

However, it seems that 90 degrees is pretty limiting. It's not even possible to check your blind spot.

Not really - if I watch my opponent wander out from my rear view mirror and I still can't see him when I look to the side, I know he's in my blind spot... That's just logical... Knowing him (or not) then defines my next action...

Quote from shurcooL :

Does it have to do something with helmets and race car seats/seatbelts not letting the driver turn around as much as in a real car?[...]So why 90 degrees? Is this change explained in the patch notes somewhere, any words from the developers, or is there an obvious answer to it...?

Yes, and iirc Scawen used exactly that example when the new look system was introduced - in the road cars, you should even get the same view you had pressing both look buttons when you now press your (newly assigned) rear view button...

It was limited because IRL there is no way you could turn your head that much due to the limits imposed by the like of 5points, helmet and Hans etc.

90 is not that limiting in reality because the mirrors etc.

HTH

Quote from Woz :

It was limited because IRL there is no way you could turn your head that much due to the limits imposed by the like of 5points, helmet and Hans etc.

90 is not that limiting in reality because the mirrors etc.

HTH

Ok, so it is the extra limitations when you're sitting in a sports car vs. a regular street car. Because in the latter, looking almost 180 degrees behind is clearly possible (it does take some time).

Thanks, that seems to answer my question.

Edit: Speaking about the mirrors, they're a little misleading vs. real life mirrors because of the way the reflection is calculated. It's not a true image that you would see from the driver eye's POV. But this is clearly a rendering limitation.

Quote from shurcooL :

Ok, so it is the extra limitations when you're sitting in a sports car vs. a regular street car. Because in the latter, looking almost 180 degrees behind is clearly possible (it does take some time).

Thanks, that seems to answer my question.

Edit: Speaking about the mirrors, they're a little misleading vs. real life mirrors because of the way the reflection is calculated. It's not a true image that you would see from the driver eye's POV. But this is clearly a rendering limitation.

Yep IRL you can look right back but only if your shoulder blades are off the seat, something only possible in a strandard 3 point car seatbelt.

A 5 point is designed such that you are in the seat and that is it. Try looking back IRL sat normally and ONLY moving your head and you will see what I mean

The gains you get IRL though is that your peripheral vision is far greater than in LFS, something you can only solve with a 3 screen setup

Yep the mirrors are a cheat and the wing mirrors only show the rear chopped in half. This is a render cheat to use a single rear render instead of 3 different sets of views that would all need calculation.

yeah even 90 is unrealistic in a sense because with my hans device i can't even move my head side to side. i struggle to see about 30 degrees to each side i reckon. having said that i use 90 degrees of head turn because its much easier to see where the other car is

Quote from LFSn00b :

It also feels a lot unreal if you're using 6DOF to view around you, then suddenly there comes the limit of 90 degrees and it just stops there.

Realistically if you would be driving the road cars, shouldnt you still be able to see about everywhere from the front seat? Example I can turn my head 180 degrees when driving/being in a road car.

Quote from Woz :

Yep IRL you can look right back but only if your shoulder blades are off the seat, something only possible in a strandard 3 point car seatbelt.

A 5 point is designed such that you are in the seat and that is it. Try looking back IRL sat normally and ONLY moving your head and you will see what I mean

just about sums it up i thought

Quote from [DUcK] :

yeah even 90 is unrealistic in a sense because with my hans device i can't even move my head side to side. i struggle to see about 30 degrees to each side i reckon. having said that i use 90 degrees of head turn because its much easier to see where the other car is

Well what about turning your head + moving your eyes to the side? In real life you've got a helmet in your way while we don't in LFS, so maybe it still doesn't add up.

Quote from pik_d :

In real life you've got a helmet in your way while we don't in LFS

We do have a helmet "in our way" in LFS, we just don't see it. But the driver does wear a helmet

The model has a helmet, but the view is unobstructed.

try pressing left view and holding it, then press right view while you hold down left view, does it help?

That is 90 degrees Chavm

Quote from pik_d :

Well what about turning your head + moving your eyes to the side? In real life you've got a helmet in your way while we don't in LFS, so maybe it still doesn't add up.

well i have to strain my eyes, and i might be lucky to get about 60-70 degrees. you can't see much out of the car, you have to rely on mirrors and sound. a bit like lfs in that respect, but i think it's easier to do that irl. i guess that's why they implemented a 90 degree look function in lfs, and the 30 degree for people who like realism. it's not the helmets fault, it's the fact you're tightly strapped in a 5 point harness with a hans device. the hans device restrics your head turn to about 30 or so degrees as i say. i guess if i didn't wear the hans device, i could turn my head 90 degrees while strapped in. that one time you think you shouldn't wear it cos i'm 'just taking it easy', though, is probably when an accident will happen so i don't take the risk and always wear it, even though it restricts visibility slightly. but as i said, you can use your ears and mirrors and senses to know where the other guy is anyway

This may be quite sad but I miss the smooth 'look over the shoulder' to see out the back of the road cars.. it felt more realistic than the 'snap to instant rear view' in my opinion, and was a nice touch unique to LFS
I remember the change to Instant 45degree, and the rumblings of discontent which (possibly) led to Scawen making it optional.. another cool thing about LFS - user testing of patches !

Cheers

Rob

Quote from shurcooL :

I know a human head can't rotate 180 degrees, but together with your body/shoulders and by moving eyes, it is easily possible to look almost directly behind you, isn't it? At least in a real street-legal car it is.

Try doing that in a race enviroment. Infact, try doing that in a road car when doing over 100mph.

Quote from LFSn00b :

It also feels a lot unreal if you're using 6DOF to view around you, then suddenly there comes the limit of 90 degrees and it just stops there.

Realistically if you would be driving the road cars, shouldnt you still be able to see about everywhere from the front seat? Example I can turn my head 180 degrees when driving/being in a road car.

Yes!
Even when you're not moving your shoulders, your head can turn about 80 degrees. Then your eyes can turn about 40 aswell (and with a view angle of your eyes of I don't know how much, 90 degrees is just way too few). You're able to see almost everything around you just by rotating your head and eyes.
Yes, if you wear a helmet a bit of this is lost. So maybe limit it to 120 either side. I use a 50 degrees FOV; so us realistic drivers need more than 90 degrees left/right view.

There are dozens of topics about this btw, but a developer has yet to respond. Simply by saying "We can make the limit optional" or "We will leave it at 90 degrees".

Quote from rich uk :

What I want to know, Does anyone use smooth look? I find it impossibly slow and frustrating when it's on haha.

I always use it - I can make short glimp and due to movement can see all realtive points while with snapshotI got to figure out exactly where was that taken.

And I am still waiting for parabolic rearview mirror that covers 180