Frankly i think its time to stop people skin stealing.. i thought of a way to make this work...

when you go onto a server you download the skins.. the go to .dds in skins x folder they way people steal skins is to di with the .dds file in the skins_x folder im not gonna explain how they do it because i dont want more people doing this..

when you put a new skin into your skins folder and start up lfs it says converting..[skin name], its converts it to .dds if when it converts it, it converts the skin into a png or another high detailed picture then the people cant steal the skins in the same way as they were before..

as long as they still downloaded them into skins_x into a .dds file if you know how they steal the skins then you will understand this thread much easily..

Thanks Tur8o

Doesn´t matter what format any of the skins are in, some idiots will always steal them. Trying to change it is pointless.

Right I am confused. You say you found a solution yet I have read your post 3 times and all you do is hint at how people steal the skins and seem to suggest using png files which would be just as easy to steal if they wanted.

There's no surefire way of stopping it. The only thing you can do is make it a little more difficult.

What I'd do first of all is stop displaying the name of the skins you're downloading and have LFS automatically rename them to something like skin19476284.dds when it downloads them - that would make it much harder for people to find one they wanted.

Secondly, I'd put an option on LFSW that would remove skins from the client computers when you leave that server. So you check a box and then LFS deletes your skins when you leave. Sounds simple enough. That means the person would need to minimise LFS while you were online, find it and copy it out in order to steal it. And of course finding it would be harder if we had my first idea added as well.

Of course people with limited bandwidth could complain about that, despite 400kb not really being that bad. And they'll say that it wouldn't help since they could still be stolen, but as I said it would just make it that little bit harder.

thats even better than my idea

This has been thrashed so many times in this forum and EVERY time it has been decided it is not practical and pointless.

It would require a DRM like system and we all know that no DRM works at all. Show a DRM that has not been cracked It only effects users and does not stop theft!

Quote from Dajmin :

What I'd do first of all is stop displaying the name of the skins you're downloading and have LFS automatically rename them to something like skin19476284.dds when it downloads them - that would make it much harder for people to find one they wanted.

Has no effect at all. I can just look at thumbnails of the dds files. 2 seconds searching found this!

http://developer.nvidia.com/object/dds_thumbnail_viewer.html

Quote from Dajmin :

Secondly, I'd put an option on LFSW that would remove skins from the client computers when you leave that server. So you check a box and then LFS deletes your skins when you leave. Sounds simple enough. That means the person would need to minimise LFS while you were online, find it and copy it out in order to steal it. And of course finding it would be harder if we had my first idea added as well.

Very bad idea and here is why...

1) LFS had to implement a cost for downloading skins to cover the bandwidth costs. This will mean repeated downloads every time you connect to a server. Skin download costs will jump a HUGE amount because you will download skins every time! This will NOT be popular.

2) People on slower connections will have to wait longer to join busy servers because they have to re-download skins every time.

3) The LFS server bandwidth requirements go up because skins are no longer cached on clients. So the devs will need bigger backbone connection.

4) If you get a server disconnect you will have to re-download 19 car skins + 19 helmet skins again before you can re-join!

5) I can just Alt-Tab out of LFS or run windowed then use the dds viewer to locate and take the skin while still connected to the server.

As you can see I got around that "solution" in 2 seconds and it would take LFS Client, Server and website code changes to implement. Pointless...

If you want people to be able to see your skin you have to accept it can be taken. Don't want it stolen then don't upload to a public space. Simple as!

Any other solutions? lol

Quote from Woz :

Has no effect at all. I can just look at thumbnails of the dds files. 2 seconds searching found this!

http://developer.nvidia.com/object/dds_thumbnail_viewer.html

You could just sort them by date and only look at the newest skins, too. Should work, IMO.

The only way to prevent it is to introduce a uncommon file format in wich could be encrypted, wich would be encoded by LFS while downloading, with exception of skins that could be marked as public skins.

But this could slow the game down or lengthen the skin download time.

The question weface here is: Does the skin theft warrant the lengthy process of developing an encryption process that would prevent it? I dare say no.

And there are some ways to prevent it already: don't upload a kin you don't want to gte stolen. Or use it only in pw protected races with trusted people, like in league races.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

The question weface here is: Does the skin theft warrant the lengthy process of developing an encryption process that would prevent it? I dare say no.

And there are some ways to prevent it already: don't upload a kin you don't want to gte stolen. Or use it only in pw protected races with trusted people, like in league races.

Or use a real low rez one on public servers etc

Quote from Woz :

Or use a real low rez one on public servers etc

That's silly, people get 512x512 skins by default anyway. What you use wont affect that.

Quote from pik_d :

That's silly, people get 512x512 skins by default anyway. What you use wont affect that.

SIGH.

Upload a "crap" 128*128 you have upscaled to 512*512 under one name then your "good" skin on another. When on public servers select the "crap" one and when on private select the "good" one.

People only download the skin you are using... It's NOT rocket science!

I just dont get this. People want the tiny dev team to create a full DRM system for jpg images that they are uploading to a public space.

I thought this was a race sim not a car show room?

Quote from Woz :

I thought this was a race sim not a car show room?

/thread

Totally agree with that. Me myself, i cant make good skins - just some simple stuff. And if someone steals my skin, draw some numbers on it ... i honestly dont care about it. Also depends whats named as skin stealing. Ive taken some skins too, and ive taken out some spots i really dont like. Just like "NOS" logo on some skins.

Quote from Woz :

SIGH.

Upload a "crap" 128*128 you have upscaled to 512*512 under one name then your "good" skin on another. When on public servers select the "crap" one and when on private select the "good" one.

People only download the skin you are using... It's NOT rocket science!

I just dont get this. People want the tiny dev team to create a full DRM system for jpg images that they are uploading to a public space.

I thought this was a race sim not a car show room?

So your solution to keeping your super awesome skin that you're proud of and don't want anyone taking is to make it look like a horrible gif from 1997?

"Wow this skin is so good that I better never use it in its full glory!!"

Quote from pik_d :

So your solution to keeping your super awesome skin that you're proud of and don't want anyone taking is to make it look like a horrible gif from 1997?

"Wow this skin is so good that I better never use it in its full glory!!"

Sigh. No my real solution is not to upload skins to a public space if you don't want it taken. That was an expansion on the idea by ColeusRattus.

Bottom line, if you upload ANYTHING to a public space expect it to be taken and reused. Applies to ANYTHING digital.

If you can't deal with that don't upload it in the first place.

Anyone that comes up with a "good" idea to help reduce the "problem" normally puts forwards something that (A) does not work, (B) makes LFS more hassle and causes server join delays or (C) is DRM related and expect the devs to maintain this DRM to keep their "valuable" skin safe.

Not one single idea ever put forward to date has had ANY merrit when thought through!

It would be VERY easy to introduce a single binary cache file for remote player skins - introducing a DRM-esque system is nonsensical.

That said, what's the point? If people are that bothered about stealing skins, they can even resort to taking screenshots and pilfer images in that fashion. Everybody has the ability, it'll never go away.

Quote from dawguk :

It would be VERY easy to introduce a single binary cache file for remote player skins - introducing a DRM-esque system is nonsensical.

That said, what's the point? If people are that bothered about stealing skins, they can even resort to taking screenshots and pilfer images in that fashion. Everybody has the ability, it'll never go away.

So by sinle binary cache you mean a single file that is indexed to show start/end of each skin? Or do you mean a collection of files such as the skin_[x|y] cache we have now?

I take it the skins will be encrypted in this cache to stop extraction based on the file indexes otherwise its is a simple piece of code to extract and re-create the file using the index?

Most cache systems are created for ease/speed of extrtaction of the data, that is the point of a cache. In fact the skin_[x|y] directories are a cache!

To protect the data needs to be encrypted in some way and so we are back to a chunk of code (web and client) that needs to be managed and maintained by the single LFS dev team (which is tiny).

If the data is not in the format that is required by the system then code needs to be created to unpack/transform etc. More code is more testing is more bugs! (20 years at the code face has taught me that)

This is why dds files make sense. Only code required is that too pull down the file from the source.

Is it really an issue? that is my real question?

There's a fairly simple and incredibly satisfying solution to skin-stealing.

If you see someone using your skin, make a pink one with 'I'M AN IDIOT WHO STEAL SKINS' all over it and upload it with the same name.

From the thief's view he will still see nothing different (as the skins used by the user are held in a different folder to the cached downloaded ones) - everyone else will see them for the thief they really are as their clients will redownload the new pink one.

Always remember that EVERYTHING goes through the GPU can be ripped out. There's no way to stop stealing if someone really want to.

Quote from Crashgate3 :

There's a fairly simple and incredibly satisfying solution to skin-stealing.

If you see someone using your skin, make a pink one with 'I'M AN IDIOT WHO STEAL SKINS' all over it and upload it with the same name.

From the thief's view he will still see nothing different (as the skins used by the user are held in a different folder to the cached downloaded ones) - everyone else will see them for the thief they really are as their clients will redownload the new pink one.

How if the guy re-uploaded the skin ?

Quote from Keling :

How if the guy re-uploaded the skin ?

a) Only the person who originally uploads a certain filename can upload over it.

b) He wont know until people start laughing at him and pointing out what happened

c) he will likely have downloaded the 512x512 and will have to resize that to 1024x1024 and the skin will look like crap anyway.

Remember, You can always use defaults skins!

if someone steals your skin reupload a skin with the text "IM A SKIN STEALER" and then ppl will see that when they download the skin instead...

Quote from Crashgate3 :

If you see someone using your skin, make a pink one with 'I'M AN IDIOT WHO STEAL SKINS' all over it and upload it with the same name.

Mouhahahaha !
Thanks Crashgate3, that's a really good base for a prank joke i'll make to my friends !

I see some confusion coming in a nearby team event. Hahaha

-Never trust a .dds given by a ''friend'' ! lol

I would like to apologize to the AMG clan for 'stealing' one of their skins. I completely misunderstood the whole idea of high res downloads, I thought they were for the use of everyone but doing a little research I've found its just to see other peoples personal skins in higher resolution.

Once again I apologize. Uni.

Quote from Zalex :

Thanks Crashgate3, that's a really good base for a prank joke i'll make to my friends !

But it was Jakg who got there first (although his was white)