Hi,

I know there is a discussion going on atm with tyre wear/heat/sidewalls involving camber, but this post is not conserning that, so i thought i ask a different question (thats been bugging me for a while)

I watch lots of classes of races (now that i have sky+ ) open wheel,touring and gt mainly - what strikes me is that which ever wheels are driven, a lot less camber is on that axel, examples:

F1,A1,Cart - lots of front camber, virtually no rear camber
GT's - Lots of front camber and about half this amount for rear camber
Touring cars - front wheel drive, quite a bit of front camber but even more rear camber, rear wheel touring cars (bmw's etc) more front than rear.

Now i dont drive the front wheel drive cars in lfs (well sometimes if i feel suicidal or something) but all the setups i either make or download for the rear wheel drive cars end up with more rear wheel camber than front camber.

Am i imagining this?, is it just a driving style issue?

Incidently, my own car an impreza wrx sti with rear wheel bias (35F/65R) has more rear camber (quite a bit more) so this is going the lfs way, but its just a 'safe' road setup.

Troy

I think that you are mistaken the settings (in tyre menu) as real settings. Now to get the real value of camber you have to look on the right side, under Optimum temps. You will see something called live and then a value behind it, that is the real camber value. As example on Fo8: front camber in settings: -2,3 rear camber in settings: -3.0 but live camber front : -4.41 and live rear camber : -3.41 with those settings.
So you see that in fact there is more camber on the front then on the rear. Still you're right about one thing, I find also that there is a lot of camber applied on the rear for good settings compared to what you see in real live. But then again i'm no engineer or mechanic so I could be mistaken.

maybe some more info in here:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=7849

Less camber on the driven axle means better traction. Easy as that.

Yeah right, but if you look at setups (in the setup field) you see that there is a huge amount of camber on the (Fo8) rear axle (-3.0 for Blackwood). When driving, you see in the tyre menu that even with that much camber the outside of the tyre still
is overloaded (don't know how to call it else, but I think you know what I mean) in corners. When you put less camber on it, -2.5 - 2.0, you have a lot of oversteering in corners, even if you change the front camber and perhaps put more wing on the rear.

Quote from LRB_Aly :

Yeah right, but if you look at setups (in the setup field) you see that there is a huge amount of camber on the (Fo8) rear axle (-3.0 for Blackwood). When driving, you see in the tyre menu that even with that much camber the outside of the tyre still
is overloaded (don't know how to call it else, but I think you know what I mean) in corners. When you put less camber on it, -2.5 - 2.0, you have a lot of oversteering in corners, even if you change the front camber and perhaps put more wing on the rear.

And you know why this is?, because the sidewall isn't working quite as it should.

Dan,

yeah I read your posts on the other thread. Seems that you're quite right.

Hi,

I do realise why less camber is needed on the driven axel, i dont need telling that (but thanks)

Thought i was looking at the live camber, i always 'drop' the car to make sure it settles too (i often have different camber left to right)

Maybe this discusion is mixed up with the 'sidewall' tyre thread afterall

Troy

Quote from danowat :

And you know why this is?, because the sidewall isn't working quite as it should.

Dan,

Or, maybe, because of limitations in the (excellent) LFS tyre model, there isn't enough of a traction penalty for running high camber on the drive wheels?
has anyone looked at this in detail ?

col

Less camber in RWD rear wheels is because of more traction for power (as stated earlier) and because the rear is generally stiffer by nature because the lack of the steering requirement. In other words, the rear should have less overall dynamic camber change than the front does (at least in formula cars).

F1 cars typically run around 3° front and 1.5° rear camber. However, I don't know if that is a static or dynamic setting. (Steve Matchett book, Chariot Makers)

Teams often add camber to increase the heat in the tire. I am interested by this because if you try this in LFS, you end up with a very hot inner tire, but a cold outer tire.

I'll have to go read that other thread on the sidewalls in LFS. This could have a dramatic impact on just how much camber is effective.

Quote from danowat :

And you know why this is?, because the sidewall isn't working quite as it should.

Dan,

Oh? You don't think it might have something to do with the fact that most setups available for download are for hotlapping? My race sets have much less rear camber than my hotlapping sets.

If average races were longer this thread wouldn't exist... Even "races" in LFS right now are mostly hotlapping... Then people complain that the inside of their hotlapping setup tires get to hot. I really doubt there's a problem with this, note the other thread(s) and the common sense posts. If someone can prove emperically(sp?) that LFS is wrong in patch U in this area, then *I* will eat two meteres of sausage and so be it.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=125578#post125578

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

If average races were longer this thread wouldn't exist... Even "races" in LFS right now are mostly hotlapping... Then people complain that the inside of their hotlapping setup tires get to hot.

Maybe we say a race of one hour with Fo8 on Blackwood? Is that long enough. We had this combo on the ESL yesterday and yes the inside of the tyres got too hot and no it was no hotlap set. But problem is that if you change camber to even the temps to some degrees the whole tyre overheats, when you take more camber it's only the inside. As strange as it sounds but an optimal camber/pressure setting is too slow, So what happens is that you make a race setup that after some laps has slight overheating but at some point the temp will come down again and you can drive fast as hell again.

(Let's say it that way. In real life I would never setup a car like that for a race. But in LFS it seems to be the faster way and as nobody wants to hit the last place you go with the mainstream. Although I have to admit, when I see some other of the fastest setup for this combo that I've choose a total different approach for the setup.)

Well if R2 tyres would worn out (much) faster we probably wouldn't talk about overheating (or at least not so much), cause we would have to take R3's.
The camber issue though would still be there.

If the other simulation games have it correct, with a downforce car like the FO8, the optimal amount of camber will result with higher temps on the insides of the tires.

Yeah but it in real life you wouldn't setup the car for a race in such a way that the inside of the tyres overheats hard.

Nothing says you have to do it in LFS either.

Just because people do it, and are faster for a few laps running an inappropriate setup (because it heats the tires) doesn't mean it's the sims fault. As Tristan mentioned in another thread, there's other reasons people don't do that IRL.

yeah of course, was just one example wh you don´t do it in real life.