Quote from SamH :

Firstly it's not 3rd rate, unless you live in/near a dump. If so, then move.

Secondly, you're not forced at all. Go private. Borrow some money and go into debt. Or just die of whatever disease it is you want treating. That's always an "option" for you, unlike 50 million Americans. Nobody's forcing you to do anything.

The problem is SamH if American have their version of the NHS then this would put a huge drain on resources. Taxes will have to rise. You tax the rich of course, and what does this do? It means they have less money to expand businesses and create jobs. With less jobs, you have more poverty, and thus a reduced state of health. OK you have a mammoth inefficient healthcare system but at least it's free right?

This really isn't simple at all.

For example the binge drinking culture we have in the UK could effectively be wiped out (well maybe not quite ) over night if you told the drunken yobs "Right you bunch of tossers we aint taking you to the hospital unless you pay up" Binge drinking is causing a massive health problem in the UK, even the NHS has said they can't cope!

People see the UK as some great place for health but again it isn't as simple as that. You are more likely to survive cancer in America (if your not one of those 50million) than you are in the UK.

And I do not actually have a choice. In the UK, unless you are one of the super rich you HAVE to put up with sub-standard healthcare even thought I DO recognise some of the FANTASTIC and KIND MINDED people within the NHS!

is it bad or not??? right or wrong??? hot potatooooo

Not so. Private medical care isn't that expensive, it's just more expensive than free (via taxes obviously).

And you don't HAVE to use the NHS - pay or don't use a health service, the same choice as they have in America. As an experiment, I want you to not use ANY NHS related services for the next 5 years, and then tell me you don't miss it.

And why is lack of choice a bad thing anyway? I'd wager that having more choice (though with the amount of private health companies out there you aren't lacking in choice) is often worse than very little.

I'm pretty familiar with the current US health system, Alan. Pretty familiar with the UK system too. If you think the US health system is some kind of utopia, you're mistaken. If you have health insurance, it's pretty directly comparable. Of course, if you DON'T have health insurance there really is no comparison.

The only differences are that our health system suffered the Thatcher years of chronic underinvestment (a health system takes decades to recover from short-term cutbacks) and that the US health system is profoundly more costly than ours, per capita.

What's being proposed in the US is not a replacement for the current system but a supplement for the current system, to provide basic NHS-style cover to those 50 million people who DO work but aren't covered for pre-existing conditions or are working in industries where healthcare isn't part of the employment package.

The US is the only industrialised nation without a socialised healthcare system. Arguably it's not an advanced society. Equally arguably is that it's not a caring society. Though I'm immensely fond of the yanks, I'm under no illusions about their sociopolitical standpoint. They're NOT a caring people, in the majority, though they do THINK they are.

Quote from Intrepid :

The problem is SamH if American have their version of the NHS then this would put a huge drain on resources.

But America’s health care is already the costliest in the world, yet the quality is patchy and millions are uninsured and without proper medical care. Sure they have basic healthcare but the equates to a sticky plaster over a gushing wound.LINK

As for 3rd rate health care, get a grip would you. Sure there are faults in the NHS, I will not deny that, but to call it 3rd rate is showing the ignorance. Check the WHO health ratings at the moment, and while we aren't top, I would say that 18th is not n indication of 3rd rate healthcare. LINK

Oh and please can you back up any claims about cancer survivals. as you say, this really isn't simple at all. LINK

Quote :

But just comparing the US and the UK, and saying that the bigger number is ‘better’, misses a deeper truth.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Not so. Private medical care isn't that expensive, it's just more expensive than free (via taxes obviously).

And you don't HAVE to use the NHS - pay or don't use a health service, the same choice as they have in America. As an experiment, I want you to not use ANY NHS related services for the next 5 years, and then tell me you don't miss it.

And why is lack of choice a bad thing anyway? I'd wager that having more choice (though with the amount of private health companies out there you aren't lacking in choice) is often worse than very little.

Tristan the NHS distorts the market because it's funded by tax payers cash. With this in mind private health cost goes through the roof because thats the only product they can sell - healthcare for the super-rich.

This is a reduction in choice! I can not choose affordable private healthcare! That choice does not exist in the UK!

Having more choice is bad? lol Tristan I would like to see your face when the MSA announce only karts are allowed to be racing in UK. At least that means the grids are big in all classes! Less choice eh!?!

How many millions of Americans are currently living in poverty or extreme poverty? 37 million in 2007 but I can't find numbers more recent than that. Can these people afford to pay or get a loan for health care/health insurance? What is the cost of getting health care for the Americans compared to, say, the annual defence budget or the cost of the war in Iraq? Some would argue you need to spend billions on national defence to protect the country from terrorism whereas others would say national security is protecting the citizens from disease and illness rather than squandering billions on trying to protect from a threat that can't really be dealt with by throwing money at it.

To be honest this is rather a pointless debate. I am a man, I would like to look after and pay for myself. However the debate isn't a UK based one. Maybe one day I might become wealthy enough to enjoy the FANTASTIC healthcare friends I have known who have gone private night!

Quote from Intrepid :

For example, in the UK we have a monopoly. I do not have the freedom to use private healthcare because it's priced out of the market. Private healthcare is now only for the VERY rich. Instead I have to deal skanky NHS doctors and 3rd rate hospitals (which I have to pay to park in) in a system that saps £1,000,000 a minute!

You should see my local hospital (Admittedly the one it replaced was awful, originally being a Victorian era workhouse).

And from what I've heard, US private healthcare isn't exactly within a lot of people's budgets either (obviously depending on the size of the bill), hence why there are state insurance schemes such as Medicare and Medicade.

Quote from Intrepid :

Tristan the NHS distorts the market because it's funded by tax payers cash. With this in mind private health cost goes through the roof because thats the only product they can sell - healthcare for the super-rich.

This is a reduction in choice! I can not choose affordable private healthcare! That choice does not exist in the UK!

Having more choice is bad? lol Tristan I would like to see your face when the MSA announce only karts are allowed to be racing in UK. At least that means the grids are big in all classes! Less choice eh!?!

Your commentary is so simplistic/simple-minded it's a joke. Not everything can be thought of in terms of karts. :rolleyes:

Quote from 5haz :

Medicare and Medicade.

Medicare is basic insurance for pensioners. Medicaid isn't available to many at all.

This is worth a read: The brutal truth about America's healthcare

Quote from SamH :

Your commentary is so simplistic/simple-minded it's a joke. Not everything can be thought of in terms of karts. :rolleyes:

blahblahblah

BUT SAM! LIFE IS LIKE A KART RACE! SOMETIMES YOU ARE LEADING AND OTHER TIMES YOU CAN BE SLID OFF INTO THE SAND BUT EVENTUALLY YOU PACK UP AND LEAVE!

/me grabs Dustin by the... and stuffs a hockey stick up his...

Unfortunately, unlike Intrepid, not everyone has an extensive ball collection to fall back on.

Quote from SamH :

/me grabs Dustin by the... and stuffs a hockey stick up his...

Thankfully he's Canadian and therefore he does not have to pay to have the hockey stick removed from his....

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Thankfully he's Canadian and therefore he does not have to pay to have the hockey stick removed from his....

hehe!

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Thankfully he's Canadian and therefore he does not have to pay to have the hockey stick removed from his....

Mackie he still has to pay It aint free!

Quote from Intrepid :

Mackie he still has to pay It aint free!

Not as much if he was a yank....

Since Dustin likes to go white-water rafting, the hockey stick would effectively serve as a rather handy rudder. Therefore, said removal would be "elective surgery".. which I don't think is covered under Canada's health service

Well you'd want someone to do a decent job of pulling a hockey stick from your behind. I'd rather pay extra to go private than have someone tied down by bureaucracy, budgetary constraints and targets.

Quote from Intrepid :

Well when you want someone to do a decent job you'd rather pay extra than one tied down by bureaucracy, budgetary constraints and targets

I thought you were off to bed?

Personaly I would like the person to perform the 'medical care' to care about the person, and not those who want to take easy cases so that thier sucsess rate looks good for potential customers

There is just something horribly wrong that has been drummed into the majority of the USA's population that really needs to be changed, they need leaders who can actually bring this about rather than just use it as an election campaign. But its hard to change people's minds when they have been conditioned a certain way for years.

Quote from 5haz :

There is just something horribly wrong that has been drummed into the majority of the USA's population that really needs to be changed, they need leaders who can actually bring this about rather than just use it as an election campaign. But its hard to change people's minds when they have been conditioned a certain way for years.

and who are u to tell the yanks what needs to be changed?

Because what goes on in the USA, affects all of us sadly, blame globalisation if you will.

Hmm, here I had always thought they were born with hockey sticks already shoved up their..... Isn't that how they are pulled from the womb up there in Canadia?

Quote from Intrepid :

America is all about SMALL government BIG people.

The previous US Government's anti-terror laws are far more intrusive on people's lives than Obama's healthcare plans.