I don't really see the big deal with someone actually making sure the car
works before i get it. I remember a while back seeing something on tv
where someone would drive the car off the assembly line, drive it through
their 'quality control' test track consisting of a little bit of everything, then
parked waiting for transport.

You can probably never really know, i wouldn't stress so much over
something you can't be sure of. Like Tristan said, if it's new, it's under
warranty. If it's a good car, it would take a hell of a lot of trashing for it to
be an issue, at which point, it's not just gonna show up after the warranty
expired. If it's a bad car, well, better have it break early while under
warranty than when YOU are trashing it later on. It'll probably break
anyways if it's a bad car.

Do you folks not go to a dealership, test drive a car, and buy it?

Over here, it is impossible to purchase a car to come straight from the factory. If you guys can do that, I wouldn't complain too much about a few miles on the odometer.

100 different people could have driven a brand new car before it gets to the person who purchases it.

As for the 100 mile thing, they are demo cars. They are sold as new with new warranty, but are extremely reduced. I bought my wife's car "new" with 900 miles on it. I got full warranty, but it was reduced from $29,500 down to $18,000.

Buying a new car sucks over here. You can't choose exactly what you want as everything today is sold in packages and you can only choose what is on the lot unless the dealer can find something at another dealer and have it delivered (which is driven for delivery.)

Of course, the worst thing is, hardly any are available with a manual, and those that do have the option of manual transmission, it is impossible to find one.

It use to be, before my time, that you could order any option you wanted. Now everything has TC, ABS, power windows/locks, cruise control, remote entry, and AC. Options are usually "Sport package", "touring package", and stuff like that where you have a large selection of options packaged together.

An example is my first brand new car back in 1992. I wanted to make sure I had AC, which wasn't standard equipment back then, but I couldn't get AC without the $1600 audio option. I had $5000 worth of aftermarket audio equipment sitting in the garage waiting to go into the car and I was forced to pay an extra $1600 for a crappy radio and speakers made out of paper so that I could get AC.

If you are realy worried about breaking in the engine it's fairly simple, and the same for just about any motor.

Some of it was already done at the factory but run it all the way through the steps if you are realy worried.

First start the engine and let it come to idle temperature, turn it off again and then let it cool.

Once it's completely cooled off start it again and go for a short drive, 15-20 minutes and keep it out of higher gears. Light loads and low engine speeds. After that let it completely cool again.

Then start working up the RPM in each drive after, maybe 1000RPM at a time for each short drive with some bursts of acceleration, but not too much, possibly to work and then back after. This should only be a few days. Don't be afraid to do a few hard bursts of throttle after the fourth or so drive, but not before.

After that change the oil and filter, drive it stable for 500 miles or so and then you can start to realy open it up, by then it needs another oil change though. That'll be two, for a proper break in it's best to change the oil twice, and if you plan on going synthetic do it on the second one, doing it on the first could actualy cause glazing and impact performance.

The reason for the double oil change is because the largest particles will wear off in the initial break in, in those first three or four runs. Then after that you want to run it for the five hundred miles and change it again to eliminate the last of the particles.

Quote from george_tsiros :

i am pretty pretty sure they can not do "pretty much what they like with it", because at some point...1 mile? 10 miles? 20 miles? it objectively loses the status of "new car" and starts being called "used". there has to be some kind of limit on paper otherwise they can just use it as they like for as long as they like, go do whatever and then give it to me with 100 miles on the clock. or 1000 miles.

New means no previous owners and you are the first registered keeper. Used means previous owners and previous registered keepers. Pre-registered means no previous private owners, but it was registered by the dealer/manufacturer to improve sales targets in a previous period.

Quote from george_tsiros :

not a very convincing argument since it won't be on public road but on private area, the dealership garage... but anyway let's not get involved on this

I don't mean insurance to drive the car on the road, I mean trade insurance - public liability - that sort of stuff. You won't have the insurance the dealer/transport company/manufacturer requires to unload cars from a specialist transporter. You probably won't even be allowed to drive it around the dealer's yard; instead they'll bring it out the front once you've signed on the dotted line and collected the keys/paperwork from the showroom.

Quote from george_tsiros :

an engineer (mechanical engineer) friend of mine who i respect a lot (i mean a real lot) as far as competence and knowledge (he completely stripped down and rebuilt a 250cc 16v watercooled bike engine on his own, in his home and the engine started immediately. i'm just giving an example.) said that it is not really good to do that to an engine. turn it on, drive a few meters, turn it off.

It isn't 'that' good to turn an engine on, drive a few meters, and turn it off. But we're talking tiny tiny amounts of not good. Sure, if you keep doing it you will get problems - combustion deposits in the exhaust and past the rings that would normally burn away happily down the exhaust 'stay' in the engine and corrode it. If you do short journeys in a car this is what happens (simply speaking), and is why cars used for short journeys die earlier. But it occuring a few times in the dealership before you buy it will not make any measureable difference to it.

You are being paranoid based on too little understanding, some heresay, and a small amount of OCD.

Buy the freakin' car, look after it, and you'll never, ever know what happened to it before it became yours.

Edit: DragonCommando's break-in method will result in piston ring blow by. Do not do lots of miles gradually increasing the revs and load. Use those revs and loads from the off. Drive it totally normally - but without too much (but not none) high revs/full throttle boy-racer stuff. The engine needs to generate meaningful cylinder pressures to seal, bed in and become/remain healthy. On the same token, if you're a 'careful' driver - let someone else take your car out for a good old fashioned thrash once in a while. Get the exhaust, oil, water, pistons etc etc fully up to temperature and 'burn off' some of the deposits and condensation that form inside your engine.

Ever followed a car with water coming out of the exhaust (assuming an IC engine)? That's because they aren't driving it hard enough (now and again), and/or are doing short journeys. That car will have reduced reliability.

ok fine

:irked:

(this was tongue in cheek.)

thanks to everyone for your input

I didn't mean totaly baby it, maybe I should clarify that you should run it well the whole time, but not rev it high untill the first few trips have been completed. By high I mean 6-7k, it should be kept around 4k, with short burst into the higher RPMs, but not long runs.

The biggest problem with "driving it normal" for the first little bit is that it will not load it enough or load it too much. If you over heat the rings it will glaze, if you under load them, it will glaze later. Thats the main cause of blow by and performance issues. You have to be in the middle ground.

The whole reason I posted that method is because it's the right way, not the common knowlege way, which has been the cause of ALOT of power problems in engines I've worked on.

I broke in my bike the way I posted, and it runs perfectly fine, infact, it runs better than other bikes that age that where rebuilt and then broken in the "safe" way. I've even had the head off of it since then, and there's no sign of glazing, it actualy looks realy good.

Edit: Actualy, this is the first time this has happened. But I actualy found a decent article on the internet that describes it, it even explains why improper break in causes problems. It also describes the proper procedure better than I did, and I did infact make an error when doing so.

http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

And yes I know it's for motorcycles, but the procedure is exactly the same for any four cycle engine, and has no reason not to be.

i'm slightly embarassed to note that you do not read my posts closely and i can tell that because i have that link in an earlier post.

I read the post, but only looked at the first link, because they are all about break in. It was more directed at Tristancliffe realy.

That one is probably the best one actualy, it describes not only how, but why. Thats something all car owners should know.
The fact you found it before I mentioned anything is nice, thats the one you should read and follow.

sadly, i can't follow it because the engine has already been used.

also, something that people misinterpret is that it is ok if it has been used "only for a little" and it remains 'new' if it has been used only for "a little".

let me see your reaction when, after ordering a sandwich, the one who prepared it for you takes a small bite out if it.

hey, it's just a small bite, right?

You can follow it, because the engine has barely been used. An engine is slightly different to a fecking sandwich.

The engine will almost certainly have been run on the production line for a few minutes - probably just at idle, and it probably wasn't warmed through fully. It would then be driven to the storage area, which might be a few meters away, or a few miles. It would then be driven onto the transporter (unless it's the first one, which might, MIGHT be winched). It'll be driven off the transporter. It'll be moved around at the depot/dealership before you ever see it...

But it is still new. It's a new, unregistered car with close to zero official miles. It is not 'used' until you've taken it home.

If you want a 'new' car, build one yourself. Otherwise, accept the car production systems and protocols, and just be happy. At the end of the day it's only a shopping trolley, and it'll have several years of warranty on it. It's not a highly stressed Grand Prix car that will cost you thousands if you mistreat it once.

Quote from tristancliffe :

An engine is slightly different to a fecking sandwich.

It's probably my childish sense of humour, but i couldn't help but laugh out loud when i read this part.

to keep it short

even if they use it for 1 mile or 1 minute they still have a long enough time to mistreat the engine enough to ruin the opportunity i have to properly break it in.

thinking back about all this

it was a stupid topic, this topic that i started.

No. If they run the engine for 1 minute or 1 mile it's so ridiculously, crazily, stupidly unlikely that any lasting or irreversible damage or harm is caused that cannot be cured by running in the engine properly once it's yours.

It is a shame you started the topic. It would have been better to keep your anal, OCD tendencies, which are totally misplaced, to yourself.

I can't imagine engines are installed in anything without being run on the "bench" first.

Before I started working as a mechanic I always though that the engine would be broken in at the factory, but they arn't unless you order that specificaly, and I'm not sure many auto makers still offer that option.

They only run them long enough at the factory to make sure the computer is working and all the parts are doing thier job properly.


@george_tsiros
As long as you break it in properly you shoulden't have to worry about anything other than the oil change after the first few days, maybe a week, and another at 500 miles. It shoulden't be a problem to follow the steps either.

To think that any damage could come from them running it at the factory or while getting it to you is just over the top, my friends bike came with 12km on it, he ran the proper break in and all was good. It'll be no different for a car.

One thing I forgot to mention is the chassis inspection, get that done anywhere around 500-1000 miles, just to make sure everything stayed tight and wore in right, the engine isn't the only thing that needs to be broken in.

Quote from DragonCommando :

They only run them long enough at the factory to make sure the computer is working and all the parts are doing thier job properly.

How long is that roughly then?

I coulden't tell you exactly since I've never worked in a factory or been told, but it's probably no more than a few minutes. Just long enough for the computer to do a self check and the techs to check/listen for odd vibrations or anything else that would indicate a defect.

Some of those defects don't always get found, but thats a whole new topic right there.

As an additional thought - probably long enough that they can ensure the thermostat opens and the radiator fan comes on. That might be 5 or 10 minutes at the most.

Hmm, interesting.

I guess considering machining / casting improvements and the tolerance that is allowed in engines, its not as neccesary as it used to be.

Exactly. Plus, the manufacturers are churning out rather more cars, so don't have much free time to spend dynoing engines.

I don't see the big deal about breaking in engines properly. Look at the amount of used cars on the roads, most of whose original owners were mindless simpletons that drove them as normal from the showroom.

Look at the amount of "granny cars" (Ka's, Yaris', Clio's, etc.) still upwards of 10 years old that drive fine today. Do you honestly believe the first owners of those cars followed careful engineer's instructions about how to break in an engine properly over 1000 miles? I'm driving a 9 year old Yaris at the moment, with almost 75k miles on the clock, that still drives like new. I'd bet money on the fact that it wasn't originally owned by someone as careful as George here (what kind of mechanically sympathetic person buys a new bog standard 1L like mine anyway :razz, yet it hasn't needed a single engine part replaced since new. It's had the handbrake cable, plugs, oil, filters done etc., but nothing out of the ordinary. The car gets a fair amount of abuse from me alone (such as driving the length of an 8 mile motorway at 6k to squeeze 170km/h out, on several occasions, being redlined through the gears, etc., usual 17-year-old-first-car type stuff :shy, but isn't showing an ounce of it. Modern cars are built to withstand the inevitable abuse and neglect from the common folk I suppose

tl;dr - Forget the engineering perfection style of breaking the engine in. Drive it at sensible levels for the first couple of 100 miles, then gradually work up to your usual standard of driving. By the time you come to sell it (presumably you won't be hanging onto it for more than say 5 years...), any long-term damage resulting from a less than 100% breaking in period won't be noticeable, and I'd highly doubt even the second owner would find anything untoward

I agree with dougie here. These "right" break-in procedures are highly overrated. Just use your common sense - ie. don't redline it when it's cold, don't redline it in neutral, obvious stuff like that - and you won't notice the slightest difference as opposed to when you follow "the rules". Besides, there's so many different break-in "tutorials" that contradict each other, each with their own plausible arguments and mechanics to support them and whatnot, who even knows which way is the "right" way anyway

Now, I'll agree that there is a very noticeable difference between a car owned by a 70 year old grandma who only uses to go to the supermarket around the block and never goes above 2000rpm, and a car that's been driven by a younger person, properly going through the revs and the gears. But I don't think that applies here, seeing as it's a pretty sporty car and you're no grandma