True, can't even remember any bad decitions
But on the other hand, one time have to be the first :smash3d:True, can't even remember any bad decitions
But on the other hand, one time have to be the first :smash3d:i say yes to all but the joystick thing. I use joystick 'cause me panents sold the wheel.
Before hardcore mode we will have to have marshalls waving flags.Forced TC is not right. EVERY car that has TC allows the driver to disable it with the flick of a switch or the press of a button.
TC helps you go faster if you do not understand car dynamics but when you do it just slows you down because it takes actions it feels it has to take instead of what you want to take. If you and the TC do not agree it becomes a fight over the control of the car.
I ALWAYS disabled it in my BMW Mini Cooper as I hated it.
The only exception to this rule is when cars get up to the power/weight ratio of F1 style cars before the downforce kicks in because its too easy to step outside the circle of grip on the drive wheels in this situation.
The ABS issue is a strange one. First we dont have ABS yet, just brake help which is different, but when implemented the locking it on/off is a tough one. Most road cars fitted with it have it enabled and it can't be turned off but I don't know if GTR cars give a driver control over this?
Being able to turn control ABS on cars (We dont have any at the moment because we have brake help not ABS) is harder to arg.
Forced manual clutch I dont like. I use a clutch pedal as I have a 3 pedal system BUT if I only had 2 pedals I would use auto clutch. In fact when first I got my shifter I only had 2 pedal system so used the shifter with auto clutch. I do not consider a button a clutch replacement because NO car has a clutch button on the wheel so expecting people to use button clutch if they only had 2 pedals would not be fair.
Forced use of wheel controller again follows the forced clutch option. Not good IMHO. The JS and KB users are already at a disadvantage over wheel users with FF so as long as they can drive clean I do not care what they use.
All other aids, like throttle blip etc should be off unless the car would do this IRL, like an F1 car would.
I think most others agree about the following.
- No race restart only race end from people IN the race.
- No mid race join.
- No jump to pits, only retire from race.
- Start race only active after race end.
- No F9 & F10 views or other HUD displays (Apart from flag indication until we have real flags)
- Some damage should take longer to repair. So bad crash = long pitstop or race retire.
Another possibility is limited number of tires for race/race weekend. So if you flatspot or cook tires its tough, you should have taken more care of them.
TC helps you go faster if you do not understand car dynamics but when you do it just slows you down because it takes actions it feels it has to take instead of what you want to take. If you and the TC do not agree it becomes a fight over the control of the car.
I ALWAYS disabled it in my BMW Mini Cooper as I hated it.
The only exception to this rule is when cars get up to the power/weight ratio of F1 style cars before the downforce kicks in because its too easy to step outside the circle of grip on the drive wheels in this situation.
The ABS issue is a strange one. First we dont have ABS yet, just brake help which is different, but when implemented the locking it on/off is a tough one. Most road cars fitted with it have it enabled and it can't be turned off but I don't know if GTR cars give a driver control over this?
Being able to turn control ABS on cars (We dont have any at the moment because we have brake help not ABS) is harder to arg.
Forced manual clutch I dont like. I use a clutch pedal as I have a 3 pedal system BUT if I only had 2 pedals I would use auto clutch. In fact when first I got my shifter I only had 2 pedal system so used the shifter with auto clutch. I do not consider a button a clutch replacement because NO car has a clutch button on the wheel so expecting people to use button clutch if they only had 2 pedals would not be fair.
Forced use of wheel controller again follows the forced clutch option. Not good IMHO. The JS and KB users are already at a disadvantage over wheel users with FF so as long as they can drive clean I do not care what they use.
All other aids, like throttle blip etc should be off unless the car would do this IRL, like an F1 car would.
I think most others agree about the following.
- No race restart only race end from people IN the race.
- No mid race join.
- No jump to pits, only retire from race.
- Start race only active after race end.
- No F9 & F10 views or other HUD displays (Apart from flag indication until we have real flags)
- Some damage should take longer to repair. So bad crash = long pitstop or race retire.
Another possibility is limited number of tires for race/race weekend. So if you flatspot or cook tires its tough, you should have taken more care of them.
Agreed, as long as this isn't in the 'normal' mode. Whilst it's 'realistic', it's an exceptionally annoying 'feature' of netKar as it applies in ALL modes, although the amount of tyres isn't limited you just have the manually change them.
I actually use cockpit view, I switched from wheels mode purely for the formulas in S2 and not having to change my default view all the time. Having used both extensively you'll never convince me there's anything substantially more realistic to cockpit view given the limitations of playing a sim on a pc.
However, from some of the posts in this thread I can see there is some legitimate want/need for some other so-called "hardcore" options and I wouldn't really object to those being server side options.
I think Woz is right that we should seperate the issue of fcv from any sort of hardcore mode, this would probably raise the chances of some of these other options becoming available in the future. This thread is clear that fcv is a very devisive issue and it could be just what is stopping the devs from implementing the other ideas.
btw, as a league admin some options like 'no warping to pits' aren't really that necessary because it's a simple matter to implement rules and enforce them. Just wanted to mention that as leagues are often given as an example for why some of these things are necessary but it isn't always the case.
However, from some of the posts in this thread I can see there is some legitimate want/need for some other so-called "hardcore" options and I wouldn't really object to those being server side options.
I think Woz is right that we should seperate the issue of fcv from any sort of hardcore mode, this would probably raise the chances of some of these other options becoming available in the future. This thread is clear that fcv is a very devisive issue and it could be just what is stopping the devs from implementing the other ideas.
btw, as a league admin some options like 'no warping to pits' aren't really that necessary because it's a simple matter to implement rules and enforce them. Just wanted to mention that as leagues are often given as an example for why some of these things are necessary but it isn't always the case.
It would be good if the option could be turned on/off by server users in a similar way to how you change tracks now. So End race, set/clear hardcore mode and then start new race. This solves the "all servers will turn on the option" argument and it lets the servers users decide what mode they want.
So it has a place outside leagues, I see it more in line with the old CRC in that people who want serious races have servers while people wanting pickup races can avoid some of the more limiting rules, such as no mid race join etc.
Is an all inclusive mode really the best way to go about it though? I mean even those who want a hardcore mode don't seem to agree on what it should consist of. It could be better just to include a range of server side options and then the server owner can tailor the server as they see fit. For example with the aforementioned tyre and fuel limits, I don't imagine everyone wanting to use the hardcore mode on their server would always want these particular options enabled.
The devs seem reluctant to add in a lot of server side options though, just going by how many different ones are requested that have never made it into the game. I think it could work though and being that it would require more work on the sever owners part would mean you wouldn't have a whole slew of servers automatically enabling the hardcore mode as soon as it became available. This would possibly alleviate the concerns of those who aren't in favour of a hardcore mode for the reasons stated earlier, feeling they would suddenly be locked out of most servers.
The devs seem reluctant to add in a lot of server side options though, just going by how many different ones are requested that have never made it into the game. I think it could work though and being that it would require more work on the sever owners part would mean you wouldn't have a whole slew of servers automatically enabling the hardcore mode as soon as it became available. This would possibly alleviate the concerns of those who aren't in favour of a hardcore mode for the reasons stated earlier, feeling they would suddenly be locked out of most servers.
I am the server admin for the local Uni net gaming society (guns.snakebomb.com). Having started everyone playing LFS demo over the past year, it has come time when we shift up to S2 (Yay). However one of the major problems I have in the game is controlling the people playing it. Having a hardcore option, or the features that have been proposed as a server side option would be hugely advantageous for me as, so far, the only real options I have is to limit the car they are driving and set the race distance. Can you imagine a Quake 3 tourney where you were allowed to change your veiw? Or a Counter Strike tourney where your teammates turn out to be using joypads? Simply not enough control. Forcing veiws and suchlike would also discourage silly behavoir that was exhibited at our last lan where 2 lads decided to play micro machines style. No problem for me, but for those that were behind them at any stage it was a nightmare. Other options like tyre wear rate and fuel consumption scaling would be nice and would also need to be locked in a hardcore mode.
Where's Bernie when you need him ?
I thought it was Max's job?
Max is the head honcho of FIA, so he's responsible for the rules within the sport
Bernie, is (was) the guy who basically owned F1, he decide's where, when and in a manner of speaking, how they race. And, if certain biography's are to be believed, he's even had a say in, who wins
Bernie, is (was) the guy who basically owned F1, he decide's where, when and in a manner of speaking, how they race. And, if certain biography's are to be believed, he's even had a say in, who wins
Ok Now I can understand better, as you said it was a wrong choice of word
Mouse racing should be banned, i really get annoyed the combo mouse/keyb is still so good and fast. These people use also very strange setups to suit there complete unrealistic controls.
Not only cockpit should be forced, also the brakes should have a minimum brakeforce for every car. I really hate it to see people abusing the brakeforce to create a sort of abs system.
If you would do that i a real car, i would mean you have to hit the brakes with all the strength you have in your legs to slow down the car for a corner. Try that 500 times in a row!! Nobody can do that!
Sorry but ....
... for you is it a SIM-view?
STOP THIS NOW. What you hate is that someone using that setup has more skill and hence is faster than you are with a wheel. We have had the keyboard fights a while back and the issues, as far as most people were concerned, were solved at that time.
NO on cockpit. I used to be like you a while back but in the end it does not matter that much. What matters is that people are clean and want a serious race. No on minimum brake force.
ALL that matters is that people race clean and want a serious race, that is the point of a hardcore mode.
... please!!! That is the point of clean and serious players. All players have to race clean and serious race, but this is'nt enough to be an hardcore player
So true.
Anyway I copy/paste a part of my "discussion" on this matter from the old RSC thread:
Besides all that, there are so many other "unrealities" about the game and the way we play it. This is a game, which we play on our computers the way each one of us prefer.
Having a bigger monitor gives some advantage compared to 15", especially in cockpit view. Some have 15" monitor and play with a mouse, and other with a 40" screen, FF wheel and three pedals. Some use 60° fov and claim it represents the view realisticly, other uses 95° to see the side mirrors. I don't care how others play it.
And as for other options like forced TC or fuel amount, or no damage repair or whatever, that's a different story, I'm for it.
God save ... "philosophy"
You can play the way you prefere: with mouse? ... with keyboard? .... out
of the car? ..... into the car? ....from helicopter?
OK! No problem for me ....
Why, instead, I can get no opportunity to play LFS in an Hardcore MODE
"a-la-NR2003"?
It'd be a way added ... not the way to play LFS.
Why not?
You can play from cockpit, with a FF wheel, three pedals, no aids right now. But you want to get some credit for that? So you can say I am HARDCORE simracer, I play only in HARDCORE mode? And everyone will know who these HARDCORE simracers are, as they play on their own HARDCORE servers, separated from the rest, non-hardcore simracers. Or what is it all about? For me it's about fun and clean racing, I couldn't care less how hardcore someone is.
Until everyone of us have peripheral 180° screen in front of us, it's too early to talk about forced cockpit view.
Sorry but does anyone consider an "a-la-Papy" HC MODE for LFS a ...
danger?
Ne1 wanna be better then other couze HC MODE player.
Papyrus created HC MODE for their Masterpiece: was / is it so ...
"dangerous"?
danger?
Ne1 wanna be better then other couze HC MODE player.
Papyrus created HC MODE for their Masterpiece: was / is it so ...
"dangerous"?
You are taking yourself TOO serious. As mentioned in an earlier post of mine, the forced cockpit view has been thrashed to death again and again and again and again. Look in the RSC LFS forum and this forum to find this.
You appear to want to carry the HARDCORE tag as a badge to make you feel better than other people on the track. "but this is'nt enough to be an hardcore player" lol
LFS is as its best when there is close clean racing. What many are after is a mode that if for people that want a serious race with good clean racing. A step up from pick up servers. I do not care if the people I race with use js, kb or a wheel in wheels view or even top down view if that is what they want. All that matters is they they can keep their car on the track, drive well and follow normal race rules.
RIGHT, NOW TO BE SERIOUS.
If you want a REAL hardcore mode how about this
<JOKE>
View is locked to cockpit view BUT with realistic FOV. SO if you have a 15" monitor that is 2' from your eyes you should be forced to set your FOV less than 30degs because this is realistic for the viewport you have.
NO FOV above 50 should be allowed ever unless you have a 3 monitor setup because it will distort the view you see on the monitor from real life and not give true representation of corners.
How about if you dont have a shifter your MUST be forced to use auto gears in cars that would not have a seq gearbox.
Forced non digital clutch should also be forced on people. If they only have 2 peddle setups they can ONLY drive cars that do not have a clutch.
</JOKE>
GROW UP
Error!
I take LFS serious.
I'd like LFS more complete
Too many words Woz
and no answer to my simple question: what about Papyrus choice to create an HARD CORE MODE with fixed cockpit view for
their Masterpiece NR2003.
Have they to grow up ... too?
I'm still waitin for an answer from the .... beginning
Why LOL?
I'm happy for your happyness, but never said that "hardcore player"
means "the best player" or "a player better then other" ..... he's only a player
that prefere a specific kind of sim - experience.
If you want to be that serious join a league, or start one with the rules you want.
I used to be of the force cockpit view mob as well a while back and only drive in cockpit mode. But over time I have realised we are, as other have stated, limited in our representation of reality.
1) We use a monitor that gives a small FOV, as humans we have 180deg FOV although most of that is just sense of movement.
2) We get no real depth perception as the monitor is flat while in reality we see distance, unless you only have one eye.
If you are really serious about forced cockpit you should ALSO be serious about FOV. In most cases the FOV people use gives a distorted view of the sim environment as it has to get more FOV than possible into the display. This gives the Warp effect on the display.
SO if you want to force cockpit view you also HAVE to force a realistic FOV or again there is NO REALITY.
Sit at your DESK or where ever you PLAY LFS and then imagine 2 lines from the centre of your face to the two edges of the monitor. NOW LOOK at the angle they represent and set you FOV to this because this is realistic.
If you are not willing to drive with anything else than realistic FOV you are not hardcore by your definition.
BTW, what FOV do you use when you drive
Wow ....
But .... how can league control if players respect HC-M rules without an HC-Mode allowed?
Before LFS and its "serious" HC-Mode and after "serious" rules and "serious" leagues
We hope .....
Bye
Nice of you to ignore ALL off my comments on FOV and brush them away.
Please answer my question on FOV. Would forced cockpit also FORCE a low FOV so its realistic or not? If not then how can you say its realistic to force cockpit view and then allow unrealistic and distorted view through the cockpit?
Without FOV locked to the region of 30-40deg it is NOT a realistic FOV so your WHOLE argument on forced cockpit boils down to sim snobery and hence is NOT VALID.
What FOV do you use BTW and what size monitor and how far from your face is the monitor? Time to get some FACTS on how "REALISTIC AND HARDCORE" you like your sim racing shall we
I just HOPE you do not say you use an FOV of 80+ because that is such a distorted view that you might as well run in wheel only mode for the sake of your argument!
HARDCORE MODE ... please, give us ...
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