Well this has been one of the more interesting discussions I've seen on the forum in a long time. Everybody here has brought up some good and correct points. In my life I've lived 23 yrs in Canada, and 30yrs in the US. So I've experienced both systems. I must say, that given a choice, I'd choose the socialized canadian system over what we have in the US right now. How can our system be fixed, well it won't be easy and it will piss-off somebody no matter what is done.

Lobby groups; these bastards are the root of all that's evil in the US. They control the purses of multi-million dollar companies. They don't give a crap about anything but making the company more money. Until the governmant controls these pricks once and for all, nothing can be done.

Canada sits to our north with what, approximately 10% of our population numbers. Which means a much smaller tax base, and yet prescription drugs are as much as 75% cheaper there. A lot of these drugs that they are paying less for are manufactures in the US. How can this be happening? Cause the Canadian government, warts and all, won't allow lobby groups to control pricing. Now in our governments infinite wisdom, they've made it a criminal offense to purchase drugs from Canada.

Until the government says not to these major companies, the government won't be able to make any lasting reforms to anything medical or otherwise.

Somebody said it comes down to who'll pay for it, NO IT DOESN'T. It comes down to who can make the most money.

The bottom line is this: I love my country, hell I was willing to die for it if necessary, but we have to stop judging people by what they have. Judge the person themselves, not if they have a nice car, home, or make lot's of money. But I guess in a free enterprise system like ours money comes before humanity. Sad!

Quote from 5haz :

Our hospitals can cope (just about) with a higher ratio of illegal immigrants to legal citizens, why can't they in the USA, the self-styled upstanding policeman of the world?

You don't seem to understand that with a national healthcare service, everyone gets the same coverage should they need it, nobody is paying for somebody else and not getting anything back and only non tax payers (children basically) get healthcare for free (legally anyway), you're paying for your own healthcare in an indirect way, everybody gains from the system including yourself! Clearly thats too complicated for a lot of Americans to understand.

This is why people pick on Americans and accuse them of being thick, because of the backward views of people too frightened to spend money on anything but their own miserable arses. This is why democracy is bad, because these kind of people are represented in government.

Anyway, its your loss, not mine, I live in the developed world.

I realize that I would be paying for my own healthcare as well, but the thing that worries a lot of Americans is that we will become like Europe if we start implementing or copying European systems. Oh great you're so caring and compassionate of your fellow man but look at the price you pay. Americans don't want to pay 6-7 dollars a gallon for gas or pay even close to the taxes the welfare states pay. It's not "thick" to want to save your money, its frugal. America does not have socialist tendancies, we would rather be independent and pay our own way rather than pay for everyone else. Perhaps its seen as selfish to other countries and maybe it is, but as long as the US doesn't become Europe, I'll be happy.

Quote from Becky Rose :

So a system based entirely upon the generation of profit and not the best interests of the patients (un-needed operations on the wealthy, and a lack of basic healthcare for the poor) isn't what is making your healthcare so expensive?

I agree that healthcare costs have become far too high, which is a major reason so many Americans cannot get the care they need, but I would rather find ways to lower my individual cost rather than pay more for everyone else, even if I don't get sick. I already talked about illegal immigrants rising costs but Robubba makes a good point that lobbyists are also to blame.

Quote :

When you visit my country, you are covered. I pay for you. I'm proud of that. I would not watch you die infront of me.

I seriously doubt that if I flew to London with a golf ball sized tumor in my brain it would be removed for free and I could fly back and never pay a dime. If that were true, nobody would go to American hospitals, we would all be flying to Finland or Sweden for free multi-hundred-thousand-dollar procedures.

Quote :

The American healthcare system is barbaric, it's a 3rd world fronteir system. You'd do well to look at the countries with better healthcare than yours (including mine, which has a far greater number of both legal and illegal immigrants by ratio of population by a factor of 250%) and copy what is good about it.

We simply can't. Our country is too large and too bureaucratic to make socialized healthcare work. We have too many people who wouldn't pay, and not enough people willing to pay even if they could.

Quote from SamH :

And there is not, and never WAS, any suggestion that illegal immigrants would EVER receive cover in the US. There is no provision for illegals to receive health care in the US, in ANY of the proposed healthcare reforms. Period. But in the UK we DO treat illegal immigrant Americans. I know because I've seen it. And ya know what? Nobody gave a damn! Oh poor tax payers, accidentally saving an occasional "undeserving life" out of the tens of millions of people treated annually. Poor us!

Poor you, indeed. Maybe in your liberal bubble no one gives a damn, but I am sure there are quite a few Britons who have the same individualism as an American and don't condone handing out their tax dollars to people who don't pay themselves. The reason I worry about illegal immigrants being covered is because they already are covered now, why would that change when the government is in control? Perhaps if all people, from the most poor to the richest payed the exact same amount per year for socialized healthcare, I would be more accepting of such a system.

Quote :

Geez, get a grip and learn to give a damn about your fellow human being. Caring Christian society? You MUST be joking!

I don't know of anyone in the US who describes my society as a caring Christian society. The huge role of religion in American society is an untrue stereotype, and an offensive one at that. I will not have an atheist tell me what religious values to adhere to.

That said, I'm not totally against socialized healthcare in America, I simply have no faith that the government, as covered in lobbyists, trade unions, and petty bureaucracy as it is, can overcome the vast amount of hurtles in the way of socialized medicine. Also, I would not be in support of a system where not every last person pays their fair share in the way of a Flat Tax.

That's the mean streak I was talking about. It's quite dominant in the US, while it's far less prevalent here. People, here, who let it be known that they're unwilling or unhappy to contribute to a system that gives equal treatment to the poor and needy are looked on as bad or worse than you would look on someone proclaiming the virtues of the KKK. Like scum, basically.

It strikes me that much of the fear about healthcare reform might actually in fact come down to acknowledgement of a corrupt Washington. But I don't see much happening at grass roots level to expose the lobby groups and bring them down. It's like you accept it, like it's okay or something.

Quote from flymike91 :

but as long as the US doesn't become Europe, I'll be happy.

What a pathetic reason.

Quote from flymike91 :

We simply can't. Our country is too large and too bureaucratic to make socialized healthcare work. We have too many people who wouldn't pay, and not enough people willing to pay even if they could.

So you are saying Americans are basically too tight.
Or you lot are afraid of anything that requires a collective effort because it isn't "capitalist" enough? (now I see where you fail)

Quote from flymike91 :

I seriously doubt that if I flew to London with a golf ball sized tumor in my brain it would be removed for free and I could fly back and never pay a dime. If that were true, nobody would go to American hospitals, we would all be flying to Finland or Sweden for free multi-hundred-thousand-dollar procedures.

You're wrong. I've seen it. This country rocks.

Quote from flymike91 :

America does not have socialist tendancies, we would rather be independent and pay our own way rather than pay for everyone else.

Better start campaigning to dissolve your Fire and Police service then. Wouldn't want to have to pay for some other guy having his house lit on fire. Every man for himself.

Quote from flymike91 :

America does not have socialist tendancies, we would rather be independent and pay our own way rather than pay for everyone else.

Quote from wien :

Better start campaigning to dissolve your Fire and Police service then. Wouldn't want to have to pay for some other guy having his house lit on fire. Every man for himself.

and social security. I expect you to reject that check on principle now. You want to pay your own way? back it up when the time comes.

Quote from SamH :

That's the mean streak I was talking about. It's quite dominant in the US, while it's far less prevalent here. People, here, who let it be known that they're unwilling or unhappy to contribute to a system that gives equal treatment to the poor and needy are looked on as bad or worse than you would look on someone proclaiming the virtues of the KKK. Like scum, basically.

It strikes me that much of the fear about healthcare reform might actually in fact come down to acknowledgement of a corrupt Washington. But I don't see much happening at grass roots level to expose the lobby groups and bring them down. It's like you accept it, like it's okay or something.

Are you seriously comparing me to the Ku Klux Klan? Why don't you just call me Hitler to really drive your argument home.

Republicans are the only ones trying at a grassroots level to minimize the federal government and bring down large scale bureaucracy. Socialized healthcare is a step in the opposite direction as it would create exponentially more bureaucrats and a tangled mess of systems a patient would have to navigate before getting the treatment needed.
We don't accept government control over our lives, and we don't trust the government with something as important as healthcare.

The reason prescription pills cost so much in the US is because we subsidize your lower costs. You pay less because your government buys american medicines in bulk, so we have to offset the cost with higher prices. Perhaps if Europeans would be willing to pay more for pills, the US wouldn't have to pay for you. If you want equality, try paying what we pay.

I'm all for equality. But socialized healthcare isn't about equality. If it were fair, everyone would pay the exact same amount, but of course they don't. Some people don't pay anything, making the system inherently unfair.

Quote :

Better start campaigning to dissolve your Fire and Police service then. Wouldn't want to have to pay for some other guy having his house lit on fire. Every man for himself.

I'm not that much of a libertarian.

Quote from flymike91 :

Republicans are the only ones trying at a grassroots level to minimize the federal government and bring down large scale bureaucracy.

If you can say that with a straight face after the last 8 years and the huge government spending they resulted in, you've gone completely off the deep end. But I guess that as long as you use your socialised institutions to kill people, it's all okay.

Quote from flymike91 :

but as long as the US doesn't become Europe, I'll be happy.

Your loss.

Quote from flymike91 :

I seriously doubt that if I flew to London with a golf ball sized tumor in my brain it would be removed for free and I could fly back and never pay a dime. If that were true, nobody would go to American hospitals, we would all be flying to Finland or Sweden for free multi-hundred-thousand-dollar procedures.

In theory thats the way it works, do you hear us whinging; no. Stiff upper lip!

The only reason few Americans go abroad for healthcare is because they're frightened of it being un-American.

You people don't know whats good for you.

Quote from flymike91 :

We simply can't. Our country is too large and too bureaucratic to make socialized healthcare work. We have too many people who wouldn't pay, and not enough people willing to pay even if they could.

If you just sit round saying you have no faith in anything ever working then it wont work, Obama has tried, but he gets defeated by a load of right wing ****wits.

Quote from flymike91 :

Poor you, indeed. Maybe in your liberal bubble no one gives a damn, but I am sure there are quite a few Britons who have the same individualism as an American and don't condone handing out their tax dollars to people who don't pay themselves.

People complain about standards every so often, but there has never been any large anti-NHS movement, I think we're all glad and greatful for what we've got more than anything.

The more and more this goes on the more and more I think the USA is at the same stage that Britain was in Victorian times, most powerful nation in the world, empire building, with ridiculous self righteousness. But horribly uncaring for the majority of its people. Perhaps just like Britain the rest of the world will begin to overtake the USA due to its old fashioned attitude (arguably thats already underway), and perhaps like Britain the left wing will begin to increase in power and finally turn the USA into a developed nation to be proud of.

Thats the problem with the USA, its all too right wing, out of balance.

Quote from flymike91 :

I'm not that much of a libertarian.

But don't you see that the reasons why socialised Fire and Police service is a good thing for society as a whole are the same as the reasons why socialised health care is?

It's cheaper for society to pay for fire protection for everyone than having entire cities burn down because some poor sod couldn't afford to broker a deal with the freelance fire fighters when his house caught on fire.

Likewise it's cheaper for society to pay for the treatment of people suffering from entirely treatable conditions. That way people can get back to work and pay more taxes instead of going on welfare or dying in the streets.

By paying a little now, you avoid big damage later.

This is even ignoring that socialised medicine is inherently cheaper than what you currently have by its very nature. You're already paying more per capita, while treating people worse, than anyone else in the world thanks to your royally ****ed up system. Every other country with socialised health care pays less per capita than you do.

And don't give me that tired "ZOMG immigrants" tripe either. You're already paying for them as well. Anyone who stumbles into and American ER will be treated if need be, you're currently just paying for that through your insurance instead, +25% profit margin for the stock holders of course.

cheaper for who? The people who will use socialized healthcare are not the same people who are paying for it. Since so many Americans are against government-run healthcare, I suspect that more middle and upper class citizens would continue to use their own insurance at private hospitals rather than try to maneuver a hastily thrown-together government system. That means those people will pay the standard high prices and the extra taxes. We already subsidize prescription medication for the rest of the world, we really cannot afford to pay both. That element alone is the main reason Americans will always pay more than the rest of the world (for pills at least)

wein on the subject of federal spending, democrats are the party known for huge federal spending (2 trillion dollar stimulus package that has done nothing for example)

Again I would be totally for socialized healthcare under a few simple conditions:
1. No waiting longer than one month for any operation such as hip replacement or diagnostic test such as an MRI or xray (Average wait time for a hip replacement in Canada is 10 weeks)
2. Every household pays a flat tax to be in the program.
3. There is an option to opt out of the program entirely.
4. Non-citizens will pay full price for treatment, or have their government cover the cost.
5. All government healthcare services are united under one single authority.
6. Patients can choose their doctor (thereby rewarding better doctors with more money)
7. The tax increase is not in the form of a fuel or road use tax.
8. patients will not have to wait longer than 3 hours in an emergency room.

Quote from flymike91 :

Since so many Americans are against government-run healthcare

20% oppose a public option. Your president was elected on the promise of healthcare reform. I keep hearing your GOP claiming all those people opposing reform, but if you're referring to the town hall morons or listening to Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin, you seriously need to get off Faux News. Is this lady related? Gotta love Barney Frank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8

Quote from flymike91 :

wein on the subject of federal spending, democrats are the party known for huge federal spending (2 trillion dollar stimulus package that has done nothing for example)

You jest. Bush increased federal expenditure by 55% (29% constant/adjusted) while US GDP grew just 17.3%. Federal expenditure exploded under the Bush administration.

Quote from flymike91 :

Again I would be totally for socialized healthcare under a few simple conditions:

I'll touch on a few of these points.
1. No waiting longer than 2 weeks for any operation such as hip replacement or diagnostic test such as an MRI or xray (Average wait time for a hip replacement in Canada is 10 weeks)
- Hip replacement isn't a sudden condition. Under the current system, people wait far longer than they would need under the reformed system because a) they can't afford the excess under PPO; b) any complications could potentially result in insurance issues relating to pre-existing conditions

2. Every household pays a flat tax to be in the program.
- A flat tax burdens the poor and achieves nothing. A proportional income-based tax is rational.

3. There is an option to opt out of the program entirely.
- That's proposed. However, I think that's an error. It should be mandatory, thus spreading the burden more broadly and resulting in lower net costs to all.

4. Non-citizens will pay full price for treatment, or have their government cover the cost.
- Permanent residents pay taxes like everyone else. They should have equal entitlement.

5. All government healthcare services are united under one single authority.
- Agreed. End the cartels and make the system equal and fair. That's the point.

6. Patients can choose their doctor (thereby rewarding better doctors with more money)
- I chose my doctor. My doctor will even make a house call if I'm too sick to get to him. I couldn't get my doc in the US to come see me, except when she came over for dinner.

7. The tax increase is not in the form of a fuel or road use tax.
- The tax increase should be a portion of your federal income tax.

8. patients will not have to wait longer than 3 hours in an emergency room.
- That'd be nice. The last time I was in the Lake Forest Hospital emergency room, I was there 8 hours. The time before that, 6 hours. The time before that I was there 5 hours.

The last time I hit the emergency room in the UK, I was met at the door by a nurse. I spent about 5 minutes in triage and I didn't spend a single moment trying to find an insurance card or filling out insurance forms.

flymike91 don't bother arguing with us Brits. We have a state-run broadcaster that monopolises the market. Also 90% of the population has never had anything but tax-paid healthcare. With this in mind we struggle to form our own opinions on the matter. Don't expect us Brits to understand you point of view!

The option to opt out is the most important of those points, Sam. The burden should only be spread amongst people who are going to use the service. The tax should be flat, and not based on income, otherwise the upper classes will be covering the vast majority of the cost and using the services less than anyone else because they can afford not to. The fact that some canadians go to the US to get diagnostic imaging or cancer-related surguries done is proof that the wait is far too long, the quality of care insufficient, and people who can avoid it often do. I know it's not the European way to defend the rich, but they are not the country's moneybag to dip into robin hood style.

Example of 'nice UK' flymike91 right here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KMrJGz3EIg

I LOATH Jeremy Kyle and I apologise to those on this forum but /thread

The UK is a country where you can get by without working because we are so 'nice'! Oh and by the way

"The NHS spent £1.5m over the last three years paying for its staff to receive private healthcare, the Liberal Democrats have claimed." Now that's faith in the system right there!

But yh flymike91 don't bother with us your wasting your time

I was just assigned to a group project for one of my classes at college in which we need to have discussion and then provide a report on whether or not socialized healthcare is a good thing (kinda odd, since I'm studying Mechanical Engineering, but whatever, it interests me). I was hoping that someone could give me a few answers as to exactly how some parts work in their countries.

Is every person able to choose their own doctors? And how do the doctor's get paid exactly? For instance, do better doctors get more money? Also, are there major drug industries in other countries? If so, how is the industry handled with the socialized system? It would stay capitalistic, for profit, right?

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

Also, are there major drug industries in other countries?

are you serious? according to wiki in 2007 4 of the top 5 pharma companies by revenue were european

Quote from Shotglass :

are you serious? according to wiki in 2007 4 of the top 5 pharma companies by revenue were european

yeah i was kinda serious. Thanks for answering a bit of what I asked though.

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

yeah i was kinda serious. Thanks for answering a bit of what I asked though.

In the UK we just pay £7.20 per item, and you only really pay that if you're healthy and employed. Infact I think in Wales you don't have to pay at all, all prescription medication is free. I'm not sure how the government handles the drug industry though, I assume they just buy the drugs from them then give them to us at a loss.

Quote from Intrepid :

Example of 'nice UK' flymike91 right here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KMrJGz3EIg

I LOATH Jeremy Kyle and I apologise to those on this forum but /thread

The UK is a country where you can get by without working because we are so 'nice'! Oh and by the way

"The NHS spent £1.5m over the last three years paying for its staff to receive private healthcare, the Liberal Democrats have claimed." Now that's faith in the system right there!

But yh flymike91 don't bother with us your wasting your time

What are you doing up at this time of night, shouldn't you be going to work in the morning?

Or are you one of those people who sits on their arse pointing the finger when its them thats the problem? I bet you have rich parents who pay everything for you (I don't know how old you are, but judging by the way you act, not very), and I bet you've never even had a job. I laugh when the upper classes go on about work blah blah when they just inherit their ridiculous wealth, rather than earn it.

Quote from Intrepid :

flymike91 don't bother arguing with us Brits. We have a state-run broadcaster that monopolises the market. Also 90% of the population has never had anything but tax-paid healthcare. With this in mind we struggle to form our own opinions on the matter. Don't expect us Brits to understand you point of view!

When I turn on my TV, I have a choice between BBC/ITV/Channel4/5 and several hundred other channels such as MotorsTV and Eurosport, please explain to me how this is a monopoly of the market?

We all have opinions, they just happoen to be very similar on the subject of nationalised healthcare, sometimes there is just no point in always trying to be different and original opinion wise, because there is only one opinion a reasonable person can form on a matter using reasonable logic and holding a different opinion not because of any thought but just for the sake of it just makes you look like an ignorant twat.

I think the general opinion on you is that you're best left ignored, I agree.

Quote :

The reason prescription pills cost so much in the US is because we subsidize your lower costs. You pay less because your government buys american medicines in bulk, so we have to offset the cost with higher prices. Perhaps if Europeans would be willing to pay more for pills, the US wouldn't have to pay for you. If you want equality, try paying what we pay.

This is incorrect. America does not subsidise other nations healthcare and any suggestion that it does is sheer balloeny. I pay about £8 for a prescription for 1 treatment course or 1 month (whichever is sooner, so repeat prescriptions are 1 fee per month) whilst i'm working, and free whilst unemployed.

The loss is absorbed by the NHS (it's not always a loss, I take tablets which cost a few pense per sheet to produce but I pay £8, having said that, I had two major surgeries and half a dozen £175 implants for free :shrug. America does not pay for my healthcare, the NHS does. American companies dont give a damn about it's own peoples healthcare, why would they subsidise mine? That's just ridiculous.

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

Is every person able to choose their own doctors?

Yep.

Quote :

And how do the doctor's get paid exactly?

Well it's a big profession but to give an example a General Practitioner gets paid based upon their registered client base. The lowest paid GP in the country is covering a small island community on an island off Scotland and is paid about £55k.

GP's also receive bonus' for various things such as ensuring a certain quota of their client base gets the flu jab. So for instance, as winter draws near our GP's try to get all vulnerable people to get the jab and if they achieve a target percentage they get paid a bonus. These kind of things are quite common. The jab itself is free.

Quote :

Also, are there major drug industries in other countries?

Drugs companies are private and corporate entities, we have some massive drugs companies and a lot of medical research goes on in Europe and in the commonwealth countries. Medical research and the manufacturing of drugs is still profit and capitalistically driven in Europe.

One of the problems with the developed world is the "patent race" to find cures for various diseases. It's a problem because in the search for new patents the companies search out ever more rare and obscure diseases to cure, and once the cures our available of course we're obliged to use them. The problem with our system is that this research is funded by overheads on existing cures and treatments.

Whilst this is a failing of our system, it's no better or different in America either.

The NHS itself does not turn a profit, it's actually the worlds second largest employer (behind the US military). It does do some medical research (MRC at Cambridge Addenbrooks for instance), and it is a little innefficient and over filled with middle managers producing statistics to guage quotas - and whilst it is not a perfect model of healthcare (look to France for that), it is not a profit driven "company".

Funding is distributed to PCT's (Primary Care Trusts) which are regionalised, they then approve, deny or postpone treatments based upon budget and need. When the money runs out, if urgent care is needed for particular cases they lobby for more money. If the operation is non urgent it is postponed to the next fiscal period. It's not ideal, but the system does work.

I myself had to lobby my PCT for funding for an operation after I was initially denied on fiscal grounds. I found the service excellent and I was approved immediately after my complaint.

Quote from flymike91 :

The reason prescription pills cost so much in the US is because we subsidize your lower costs. You pay less because your government buys american medicines in bulk, so we have to offset the cost with higher prices. Perhaps if Europeans would be willing to pay more for pills, the US wouldn't have to pay for you. If you want equality, try paying what we pay.

Why didn't you tell us that you're a comedian??

Quote from Becky Rose :

The problem with our system is that this research is funded by overheads on existing cures and treatments.

Whilst this is a failing of our system, it's no better or different in America either.

Feelin' the need to point out something, here. 85% of drug research is paid for by taxpayers through research grants at universities. Drug companies turn up at the END of the story, make up the remaining 15% (almost ALL on marketing and drug production) on GUARANTEED-effective drugs, and then make billions in profit. NO return to the taxpayer, only COST.

The drug companies pay NOTHING for early research, except a few (and I mean a VERY few) token scholarships - and those come with employment pre-requisites.

[edit] http://www.independent.co.uk/o ... pany-profits-1767257.html

That says they pay 14%. Worse still.

That's a very interesting read Sam, although I was left unsure if it was 14% of the cost of development or 14% of the drug companies gross.

I knew of the 1 molecule different scandal before, it's like the phage research that was burried and the frustration (and this one is UK centric) of the unavailable cure for Hayfeaver.

I didn't realise however, just how little the drugs companies where involved in the research.

An interesting point on Tamiflu not covered in that article, incidentally, is that one of the key shareholders of the company that makes it is non other than Donald Rumsfeld...

Just saying.