the fxo feels like the lx's used to... nothing I do can make it drive like a normal car, it just seems to rotate around the front end with only very marginal levels of grip on the rear. with an open dif, no throttle input, and similar suspension settings, it drives nothing like the xrt in similar conditions - main difference I see is the weight distribution?

Hey, you discovered the reason why no one likes FWD cars. Horray!

Vain

I get the feeling you've totally failed to comprehend my post? Or has everyone already conclusively decided that fwd's are terrible since the patch or something? I've only tried the fxo, we have a series in the ufgtr starting soon though...

UF GTR seems fine to me.

I was going to post one of two things:
Possibility one was "he propably discovered that FWD cars have a lot of weight in the front, which was so since the founding of FWD cars" - which lead to the above post - and possibility two was "and what do you want to discuss?" which leads to the following reply:
You state that the FXO drives "strange", or more precisely "nothing like the xrt". You also gave a reason for that ("main difference I see is the weight distribution").
So you made a statement that is perfectly true and backed it up with reason. Don't ask me, but I think a discussion should start with a question and end with a statement. Not the other way around.

So, what do you want us to discuss? What would be the target of the discussion? Can you phrase it as a question? I'd like to help you but I honestly can't because you didn't say what you want. You're not female by chance? *hides*

Vain

My question was in the subject - easy to miss I'm sure.

the rear end swings wildly about like a pendulum now, in a similar 'no throttle input, steady state' style to the lx of days gone by. The reason I gave was a hypothesis to start the ball rolling, I was curious if others have found the same and what they believe to be the reasons for it. My understanding of vehicle dynamics would lead me to believe that a front heavy fwd vehicle shouldn't pendulum at all, whereas this one goes nuts. Am wondering if perhaps the tyres 'downwards force to grip' ratio is somewhat linearly upwards, (as basic friction equations would imply) as opposed to tapering off as downwards force (weight in this case) increases.

Please don't treat me like an imbecile because you failed to expend any effort thinking about the original post. If you need everything written in scientific formula and are incapable of a free flowing, thoughtful discussion, then bugger off to science class.

Quote from Blowtus :

the rear end swings wildly about like a pendulum now, in a similar 'no throttle input, steady state' style to the lx of days gone by.

I've found similar experiences - although almost since we got S2 Alpha. I guess I'm just too lead footed whenever I try to drive it.

Locked diffs still don't help things. (Why are they still an option anyway? Just to show-off the fact that they're in there?)

Quote from sinbad :

Locked diffs still don't help things. (Why are they still an option anyway? Just to show-off the fact that they're in there?)

Maybe for drag racing? Not sure though... anyway, as for the original question, I feel the same about the FXO. I had some unexpected oversteer situations on FE Gold last night, using the supplied race setup. As far as I'm concerned, it could be a setup issue though this thread has lead me to think otherwise.

The only thing that does my head in in the FXO is the understeer that doesnt stop understeering untill you are doing 5mph............

Dan,

Quote from danowat :

The only thing that does my head in in the FXO is the understeer that doesnt stop understeering untill you are doing 5mph............

Dan,

Firstly, I would have agreed with you until 20 minutes ago.
Secondly, after I know what Blowtus wanted to talk about, I took a (singleplayer) spin in the FXO to compare it with my XFG and XFR experience and my experience from before the patch. In my first 15 laps on FXO/BW Gp I got myself down to some 1:24:* laptimes and noticed that the FXO tends to do pretty nice in corners, better than before the patch, and less understeery. But, and this is more ontopic, it also tends to some massive lift-off-oversteer and turn-in-oversteer (when you're too nasty on it). But every well setup FWD car does that since I'm with LFS.
My conclusion: The FXO handles pretty normal for a FWD of it's class. Compared with UF1, XFG and XFR it has the same problems, needs the same handling-tricks and reacts just as you'd expect a FWD to do.
The only difference to the pre-patch-FXO is that it doesn't understeer that much anymore.

Vain

I found the rear of the FXO to be more lively than prior to the patch. I'm using a locked diff with my setup now as the only time I was having the problem was on corner entry and no matter what I did with the ARBs and spring rates, the problem continued until I switched to locking diff. Then I was able to balance the setup of the car with the ARBs and spring rate relationship between front and rear as normal.

Wasn't the weight distribution changed as well?
It handles pretty much the same, post-patch, to me.

Mostly likely you are using quite a loose set? Try making a completely neutral set and see if the back end swings around then? I've found all the RWD cars need to have a lot less understeer if I want to get around the corners with running hugely wide, perhaps FWD cars need the opposite now? Old setups will be too loose? I might knock up a perfect neutral set tonight quick and see how it handles...

Quote from sinbad :

Locked diffs still don't help things. (Why are they still an option anyway? Just to show-off the fact that they're in there?)

hopefully there is still the locked diff, clutch pack is unrealistic and has nothing to see with how a lsd should act, and the viscous one is just crap and give no traction at all....so what should be the solution, open diff??

This is due to the setup, being specifically designed to do so. Most importantly, he differential settings.

This is one object with two forces applied to it at different points, one greater than the other:

What will happen is that the object will move in the direction of the forces, yes, but rotate counter-clockwise at the same time. This is because center of gravity is not on the same axis as either of the forces. Both of them create a torque on the object but the one on the right is greater, rotating the object CCW.

Now to apply this to a car, you have to know how to calculate the torque exerted on an object by a force. This is done by measuring the perpendicular distance between the center of gravity and the axis on which the force is, then multiplying it by the force.

Now imagine your wheels having turned, with the inside wheel at a slightly greater angle (for one there's ackerman steering, for another the contact patch twists more on the inside). Then "draw" infinate lines through both wheels. You will see the inside wheel's perpendicular distance will be much smaller than that of the outside wheel. Combine that with a locked or very stiff differential (high locking factor) and you have more torque being created by the outside wheel than the inside one. Then you say "But the rear of the car will resist this". Yes, true. But this is solved with a rather loose back end, meaning that the car will not resist.

So now you know what to do - unlock/soften the differential (if its a clutch pack, make sure you are editing the power setting, not the coast setting), adjust roll bars (more at the front, less at the rear) and that should fix it. Then, of course you have an understeering beast of a thing to drive that will probably be slower.

OK I tried a neutral setup, and, well, it's neutral, plenty of power understeer (with clutch pack at 50% power lock), but still plenty of lift off oversteer.

Though it doesn't help that a) the front tyres reach optimum temperature, providing peak grip, whereas the rears stay a bit cold, thus offering less grip and b) due to the front suspension, there is more mechanical grip at the front due to this as well.

To a certain extent you can reduce those factors by adjusting tyre pressures and camber.

I thought I tried everything possible setup wise to make it understeer in a steady state setting - ie, not lift off, not power on. Full front arb, no rear, raised front end, lower rear, reasonable camber and pressure at both ends. No doubt the grip at the front could be artificially reduced with crap tyres, but this shouldn't be necessary to create a car that is capable of steering induced understeer...

I did some practice in the FXO last night, probably haven't driven it since S1 and at the risk of judging too early it just seems worse than ever. One set I tried (wr set by no_one off inferno) seemed like it went to fairly extreme lengths to combat it's oversteering tendency which did help but just seemed to cause other problems.
To be honest I tend to think it's just a shitty car and nothing is really going to change that, at least my mediocre setup skills aren't going to do it

I've been driving this car using a setup from Inferno around SO and I love it!!

I'm no where near the fast drivers and have no clue about setup, i adjust my driving to suit........is that a bad thing?

yes and no I'd say.

I'm with you though m8. I like the FXO. Feeds back really well.