Quote from Cawwa :

{Snip}please guide me to the PayPal button!

http://www.newdimensionracing.com/ <--- on that page (actually any NDR website page on the system), left side, just under the main menu.

Set it in GBP, any amount you wish to contribute. We appreciate any donations we receive.

d

Quote from Cawwa :

Amateurs are for those who aren't experienced or fast. Pricemoney ruin the fun in this.

No offense Cawwa but LOL.

GTAL is filled with people who are fast. Of course not necessarily experienced in endurance racing per say. But there's quite a few people here capable of running under +2 WRs. Hardly Amateurs

Quote from Cawwa :

You run other leagues though where this concept fits in a lot better.
Let the drivers and teams donate what they can/want to donate. I'm sure there will be a lot of ppl actually do that.

+1, this i agree

GTAL is a league for amateur's, so its true what Cawwa says. Unexperienced/slow people are racing in this league, and in my eyes, a prize in GTAL is silly, and NDR do know that, and thats why there wont be any in GTAL. (at least not at the time :P).

Ima have to agree with Cawwa (and anyone else who's said it), this isnt the league to be doing this with, for numerous reasons.

1) I hate the premise of pay to drive, i know this is 'donate if you want', but your already talking about it as a possibility and even if you werent its still 1 step closer to that, and pushing the repeated "we'd really appreciate some money" line is pretty close to requesting the money, especially if your even going to set up a pricing structure, enforced or otherwise.

2) Its a league which i was under the impression was set up kinda like a feeder series for people to gain experience, limiting it to the lower ranking drivers like myself who arent quick enough to drive in MoE/IGTC etc but still have a desire to race in such a league for fun. Throwing in the competitive element of 'and the prize money is £xxx' makes this far from Amateur, and theres more of an incentive to win races with the best drivers you'll allow than there is of letting inexperienced drivers take the wheel. If i hand my username over to bawbag, and our other n00bs do the same, its easy money.
If you do this with NDR Uber Kick-Ass League, anyone can enter and win some fancy shiz, then thats great, its fair and transparent. If you do it with restrictions on who can enter and who cant, based on the fact that they're too GOOD to compete, thats wrong, and it doesnt take a genious to see how it can be abused.


Theres plenty of projects in LFS where a simple donation option is available, and leave it to peoples generosity to assist paying for some of the unavoidable expenses, but structuring fees for a season and rounds, for teams and driver... thats stepping out of the boundary for generosity and putting emphasis on whats an acceptable donation.
Donation button - Thats perfectly reasonable
Asking for donations - Reasonable, though not that different to standing in the street with a collection bucket and jigging it as people walk past, which isnt allowed these days.
Deciding how much people should donate - Rebrand to NDR Corp.

Pricing wise, its reasonable, i cant argue its too much to ask for, but the manner in which i feel your going about it all i dont really like, no matter how bold the big red text is, personally i grew up not asking for things, maybe as a kid there was plenty of 'can i have some sweets' but i knew from a reasonable age that if i deserved something and my folks were able to provide it, then if i was lucky then i might get that. Whether it was a bike for xmas, or a small treat as daft as an ice cream.
So from my upbringing asking for something isnt really in my nature unless i have little option but to ask (I have a crapton of debt, earn an absolute pitance of 3rd world standard, and i pay that months debt off and move onto the next month without spending anything on myself, yet my folks could clear it without batting an eyelid). Im not saying its wrong to ask for help, but in this way, i find its too emphasised on guilt and pressure than honest generosity. To be clear, im not critisising anyones upbringing either, just explaining my feelings and why.


Also, drifting OT a little, all the leagues which im aware of which involved fees and/or prizes have an amazing knack of disappearing mid-season too. eRacing or whatever it was called vanished, their big selling point being you could race in the top tier league with the top drivers, and in there they have decent prizes (ofc realisticly only ~5 people had a chance!) and those drivers didnt have to pay a penny to stand a chance of winning something, and the slower drivers were the ones expected to fund it all!
oneGP (09) had plans to charge teams to enter their blatent rip-off league (description text, rules, get rich quick plan...) which the original (FSR) charges high 3-figure sums per team, and OneGP claimed to offer 4-figure prizes and announce sponsors, went strangely silent on sponsors and prizes, and then prompty disappeared after about 4-5 rounds.
It seems anything with the promise of goodies turns sour, unless the dev team are running the show.


Regardless of all that, i'd strongly advise against using any proceeds on prize money for GTAL, its your league to run how you think best, but IMO its completely the wrong league to be incentivising results and removes what makes this series different from the likes of MoE/IGTC, the opportunity for regular racers to compete without looking like complete n00bs from the top drivers, we dont need their help for that

Quote from dekojester :

http://www.newdimensionracing.com/ <--- on that page (actually any NDR website page on the system), left side, just under the main menu.

Set it in GBP, any amount you wish to contribute. We appreciate any donations we receive.

d

Sorry Lizzard, didn't see you where in at first so there is fast drivers there without doubt. I really ment unexperienced endurance drivers. Was thinking of myself though, slow but very experienced and want to be in this league.

As usual Paul says what I wanted to say allthough he actually can express himself ...

[Below is my own personal opinion on the subject of fees, and may not reflect those of the rest of NDR as an organisation].

Leagues with monetary prizes [or any kind of prize really] are bad [IMO] on 3 counts:

1. People drive very, VERY badly and just race to win. It's no fun and the racing is invariably poor.
   
2. There would normally be an entry fee, thus basically the running of the league has to be nearly perfect.
   
3. People who aren't so fast are discouraged from entering "as they have no chance of winning".
   

1 & 3 are definitely against the basic values of League Racing that we believe in - close, exciting racing for any clean racers who want to enter. 2 is nearly impossible to achieve.

Personally the only event I can see prizes actually even vaguely working is the Kyoto 500. It's a big race, attracts the top guys, and if this year's race is anything to go by, a great spectacle for those watching too. Effectively we can nearly get rid of 1. above, as you actually have to work together with other racers to win, rather then twatting them off. 3. also goes because, to be frank, nearly anyone can win an oval race - its completely unpredictable and if you enter, you have a chance of winning As for 2, well entry fees will never be compulsary so that doesn't affect us. And I like to think we've got this oval lark pretty well under control [until the RC's internet decides to die and you're left with a n00b in control! ]

And guys, please tell me, where the hell have you got the idea we're going to offer prizes to the winners of the GTAL from? There's no way we can do that as a) it ain't the top rung of its ladder [that's MoE] and b) not anyone can enter. Thus the best person doesn't win

As for "wanting money", yes I do agree with you Paul. Saying "£10 pl0x" is hardly the greatest way to start. We would say "donations pl0x", but then everyone says "well, how much? £1? £10? £100?" By giving a value we can structure this slightly more. Maybe we should re-name it to "suggested voluntary donation" or something like that. After all, if you pay us less, then that's still some money, and if it's more, then way-hey
But then again, that still sounds like you "should" pay

And I don't know if I've said this before, but NDR will NEVER EVER charge compulsary entry fees for ANY of its events whilst I'm still in charge. Never ever.

Quote from J@tko :

....twatting them off.

Thank you

Right. I don't know who taught all of you people to read between the lines, but here's a quick lesson on the matter:

Almost all posts before this one are about how crap it will be when there are prizes. This is a completely false point to begin with for two reasons

1) Nowhere does it actually say GTAL 2010 will have any prizes whatsoever.

2) The concept generally should be regarded as a.. well a concept since, and read carefully now, I bet my arse there won't be enough donations/suggested entry fees/whatever you like to call them to let anyone gather a prize fund. I hope I am wrong though. But I doubt it.

In other news, I've been told I sound a bit arrogant and rude sometimes. If you're offended by me it is generally because you either deserve it (very rarely people like these I come accross) or you've got a broken sarcasm detector.

Regarding the issue on how the money is being distributed, the answer is in the OP. Personally I do not want, and will not let anyone looking into the money actions as I myself have donated a certain amount and would prefer not to make that or any other amount public.

Quote from Cawwa :

Sorry Lizzard, didn't see you where in at first so there is fast drivers there without doubt. I really ment unexperienced endurance drivers. Was thinking of myself though, slow but very experienced and want to be in this league.

As usual Paul says what I wanted to say allthough he actually can express himself ...

Hmm ok, that makes sense.

Jonathan,

812 British pounds = 1,349.87 U.S. dollars (approx) = taxable income. Uncle Sam will be knocking on your door if you're not careful. Please consider this factor if you go through with this.

Cawwa has already responded on this 'where on earth did you get that impression' on post #18, but here it is anyway...

Quote :

There are two "stages" for GTAL. One is application-based, the other is race-based.

The Application-based is a one-time for the season value. A Team application in and of itself is £3. Then, on top of that, the FIRST SIX drivers applied for are counted at £2 each. 7th and 8th and 9th etc are £0 for this purpose. So the maximum an application will "cost" a team is £15.

On the Round-by-Round basis, there is a "fee" of £1 per racer, for the first two. 3rd, 4th, etc are £0. This is a maximum of £2 per race, £14 per season.

Overall, a team would be contributing £29 for the entire season, a season that takes the whole of 6 or 7 months. On a round by round basis, that is no more than a fiver per round. Considering the team-based nature of the series, we do not consider that an undue difficulty, and that is why we chose the level we did.

Some figures to illustrate the "big impact" side of it:

If all 28 regular teams paid the full £29, that would be a total of £812 into NDR. Our projected expenses for the next 12 months (Consider our Fiscal Year from 1 Nov to 31 October for this) are nearing £300. That leaves the £500 to do two things: reimburse previous personal money spent by our members (about £275 so far) and the rest for a prize fund. We would tend to put a higher priority on a prize fund because we feel that that would be a higher benefit to those who participate in our events to offer some sort of prizes quickly.

You use GTAL as an example of how it would be done, come up with a total of £812 based on an estimate, then explain how it'd pay the next 12 months of NDR's fee's, repay the money NDR members have used for NDR events, and then clear as day explain that the remaining ~1/3 would be for a PRIZE FUND.

We didnt do the maths, we didnt jump to conlcusions, we followed the original post explaining exactly what this donation would be used for, and strongly objected to the part of what you guys describe would be done with that funding.

What i dont get is that for the example given, if GTAL took on that donation model, and after paying for what you say is the next 12 months costs, pays off £275 of previous bills, and leaves £225 for winnings. Right?
Well, what about Beginners Cup, LFSCART (+light), M.FBM, KyotoXXX and other 1-off events?
GTAL just paid off £600 worth of invoices and past bills, and left some winnings afterwards, if you take anything like the same approach with LFSCART which has far more rounds, then it should on a similar pricing structure generate something in the region of £1000. But you have no debts, no outstanding invoices... so those 2 would effectively put £1250 into the pot. LFSCART is the only non-beginner league, Ky250/500 is a 1-off, so where is this projected £1250 going to go? cos thats not the leftovers from donations, thats a f**kin nice chunk of money, which 2 leagues alone has produced.

Obviously £812 from GTAL is the 'if everyone' scenario, but that to me just goes to show the 'what if', you dont NEED £812 from 1 league, you need like £150 from GTAL and CART to cover what you say are your yearly costs. I would assume NDR started running leagues because you enjoy doing it, not because of any demand that you do them, but out of your personal choice. So i can understand you asking if people can help cover the costs of you guys providing a service. Im not sure about the 'pay our past debts too' part, nor the 'and with all this money we can create prizes' either.
I think its only reasonable that we help remove the financial costs involved, but i dont see why anyone should donate to create a prize money pot, there isnt a need for it, paying your bills is a need, giving away shit isnt a need, its a 'wouldnt that be nice'.

But considering the yearly cost is £300, if driver in GTAL and LFSCART paid £0.30 for each round, then you'd be at pretty much break even. That'd be £2.40 for GTAL (x2/x3 drivers), £3.00 for LFSCART per season, of 30 cars comes to £234-£306 alone. 2 leagues, all bills paid pretty much.

If of those 60 cars on the grid, only 1/4 pays, well thats 1/4 of the cost you chose to take on board to run these events. Its better than f**k all, which is how its been in the past and hasnt been an unexpected cost.

Asking for help paying bills is fine IMO, coming up with structures on what is acceptable (my terminology) as a donation, and how your would spend the excess money left over from all the donations just turns it all into a planned business strategy rather than a gesture of good will from folks.

The whole feeling of it puts me off wanting to donate that much i will say, it just doesnt feel like a 'we could do with some help if your able & willing' and turns it into a 'this is how we can pay the costs and make money to give away' from a group providing a voluntary service. Im not critisising you guys, but i dont think its a positive direction your going in.

Quote from banshee56 :

Jonathan,

812 British pounds = 1,349.87 U.S. dollars (approx) = taxable income. Uncle Sam will be knocking on your door if you're not careful. Please consider this factor if you go through with this.

It won't matter.

The plan is scrapped (At least for the near future).

There is obviously no way to explain this or implement it properly without causing massive problems and disrupting the standard flow of our events. This is unlike what we anticipated when setting up the system - not this much confusion or troubles.

Anyone who wishes to donate any sum may do so via the "Donate" feature on the website. We as a team will continue to pay for our services as much as we can, but of course will appreciate any donations we recieve. Should there be a day when we cannot pay for the services and then cannot secure sponsored services, then it would seem that that would be the sad day that we can no longer provide league racing services to the community, which is our prime goal.

I apologize for any troubles or confusion with this, and we hope to see you Saturday, and more of you more often in our events.

We're back to purely attempting to let 30ish drivers at a time have fun every so often under direct supervision to ensure racing is as clean as it can be. We'll see you on the track where it all really matters.

Regards,
Jonathan Palmer

Good, your were a little silly imo. At the end of the day LFS is all our hobbys and you enjoy doing it deko. Most teams etc have to pay for things too like servers but ive never been asked for money from and team manager, because when they started the team they knew what came with it. And so did you when you started running events. At the way LFS is at the moment the last thing people want is it turning into iRacing, especially for an Amateur league. I understand you put alot of time into it but so do all the drivers, we don't start asking for money because its our hobby.

Quote from Cawwa :

As usual Paul says what I wanted to say allthough he actually can express himself ...

Got to agree with Paul as well.

The mans hammer was well aimed

Bad Move Lads if you go ahead with this for all the reasons above

Ok we get the idea and can all see where NDR as a team are coming from - just a bit of advice you have a Donations button on your homepage

People actually visit our website? Awesome

Didn't know you had a website until deko sent me a link.

Quote from banshee56 :

812 British pounds = 1,349.87 U.S. dollars (approx) = taxable income. Uncle Sam will be knocking on your door if you're not careful. Please consider this factor if you go through with this.

Don't mean to offend anyone now but why do all Americans think their laws apply all over the world? 1300$ is nowhere near taxable income if you select the right country to operate from

Quote from PaulC2K :

Obviously £812 from GTAL is the 'if everyone' scenario, but that to me just goes to show the 'what if', you dont NEED £812 from 1 league, you need like £150 from GTAL and CART to cover what you say are your yearly costs.

Actually, I've done a little calculation of my own. It's a rough figure but currently it would cost £432.72-£432.77 to run all dis crap.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Didn't know you had a website until deko sent me a link.

Sent you a link? By what, a pidgeon?

Quote from hyntty :

Sent you a link? By what, a pidgeon?

Must of been snail mail

Quote from PMD9409 :

Didn't know you had a website until deko sent me a link.

We've had a website in one form or another since NDR began:

Original Bravehost website (December 07 to July 08)
Synthasite website (July 08 to October 09)
NEW SHINY WEBSITE (October 09 - Present)

Quote from JO53PHS :

We've had a website in one form or another since NDR began:

Original Bravehost website (December 07 to July 08)
Synthasite website (July 08 to October 09)
NEW SHINY WEBSITE (October 09 - Present)

thwe first one I don't even know

Quote from TFalke55 :

thwe first one I don't even know

BTW fix your sigs you and Jack. And Tim.

Quote from hyntty :

BTW fix your sigs you and Jack. And Tim.

I was just about to say that, when I realised mine was wrong too :doh: