I would just give up talking about this topic to be honest. I find that most topics that have mixed opinions never completely get the developer's call in putting it in the game. Most of the time, I just wait and see what they implement in the game, and it is usually always a good idea. So if they decide to put in a hardcore mode, I am pretty sure it will not be so extremely hardcore that it limits a player's ability to enjoy it... that seems to be the concept the devs want to achieve. So I take it, what was said already about some options being included, and some not... those could help. But this mode could clearly be implemented in the simplest of ways, and not be so detailed like we are all making it in this thread.
Just my thoughts.... The thread is just in a loophole at the moment
Woz, that's exactly what I say. I use 60 degrees, BTW. I would use lower than that if I had external gauges, but I don't so I need the gauges on the screen. I made this exact arguement quite a while ago that anything over 60 degrees is unrealistic because the perspective is all stretched out in front of you. My 60 degrees is based on what I "see" looking straight ahead out the windshield in real life, not what I "perceive" in my periferal vision. I can't look and see the detail of my mirrors in my periferal vision, I have to turn my head. Same as in LFS. I can just "see" the edge of the headliner IRL, same as 60FOV in LFS. And I can just "see" the A-pillar IRL, just as my 60FOV in LFS. Only thing wrong with 60FOV is that I can't "see" my gauges IRL, but can in LFS. IRL I have to move my sight down to see and read the gauges.
Two pages in this "hardcore mode" thread only talked about cockpit view when I joined in and posted that more than 60FOV is unrealistic. Since then, I believe SamH piped in about other options for HC Mode about fuel use, tire use, forced setup, etc. That is where discussion of the real hardcore mode really comes in to play. That is where I would vote yes for HC mode. Not with anything to do with the view you drive with.
Please answer my old .... er question on Papy and their choice to create an Hard Core Mod with Fixed Cockpit View for that masterpiece called NR2003
Mates! Please .... this is neverending philosophy.
You are waiting for a "really" realistic sim? a "really" realistic view? a "really" realistic ABS? ... etc etc etc etc?
OK .... you will wait since a Softwer House will put a real car under your "back". Meanwhile .... I'd like to play with a complete sim ( if possible )
And you are trying to make a sim "more realistic" in an unrealistic way!
So again you avoid FOV. So come on, shut us all up with how HARDCORE you are. What FOV do you use and what size is your monitor and HOW FAR do you sit from it. If you want to force what you consider hardcore then show us how hardcore YOU ARE!
In the Papy sim BTW it was FORCED to a single FOV as well so tell us what FOV should be forced on people in this hardcore mode. This is the FOV you would want to make EVERYONE use BTW, there will be NO CHOICE when in hardcore mode, just as in Papy.
So please answer the FOV question and it might stop this once and for all.
No more Woz, please, no more!!! :bowdown:
...... As I said in #97 (.... have you readed? )
My preferred FOV is'nt important, simply couze It doesn't exist :ices_rofl
I have'nt a preferred FOV. I never touched the default in-car view FOV!
When I play LFS (rarely) I use the default in-car view.
Never touched its FOV.
Papyrus decided what FOV to use in their Hard Core Mode? ... Ok! I played it without problems!!!!
LFS Crew will decide what FOV to use in an eventual LFS Hard Core Mod? ... OK, I'll play without problems.
For me default in-car view FOV is good
Valliant, you quoted yourself that you are "waiting for an HC-mode: so ..... I created this thread". You posted a picture of what you felt was "not a realistic" driving view. I stated my opinion that if you want to force others to drive in a particular view for hardcore mode because that is what's realistic, then you should also force a FOV (post # 8) because what I feel is realistic is different than what others think.
I then argued that there is no advantage to using any different view. We do not need to be forced to a cockpit view because of the fact that there is no advantage. I also stated the disadvantages of using other than cockpit view.
"It's all opinions on what is better and what is realistic." That is a quote from my post. I'm not arguing that you should be forced to use my FOV. I'm arguing that you should NOT be forced to use a different view than you like, because there is no agreement on what is realistic. That is my point about the FOV.
I don't care if you drive from the cockpit, an FOV of 300, from on top of the car, or even from a shift-U camera. None of it is realistic, but I prefer to build my racing "area" to be as realistic as possible including my own wheel, the distance from wheel to monitor (dashboard area) and what I clearly see focusing straight out the windshield at the track/road in the SIM and real life.
I never ran online with NR2003 so have never had the experience of "hardcore mode" there. But I can say after driving LFS the way I do, going back to NR2003, it doesn't allow me to create a realistic view (in my opinion) as the FOV doesn't go low enough. The view ends up having the equivalent of a 3 foot steering column since I use my own Momo wheel when taking view into account.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with your "doggy" english. It all seems quite fine to me .
If you do not care what FOV you use then how can you possibly even want to force a locked FOV cockpit view on people? What if a FOV of 100 was the forced option because more people wanted that, would you be happy?
The ONLY time forced cockpit will become an issue is when things like dirt on the screen are added. When these come in it could be an advantage not being in cockpit view.
Until then, from your argument at least, its someone that sounds like they just want to pin on a badge that say "I am hardcore, are you?" even when they don't actually care what "being hardcore" actually means!
99.9999% agree that a hardcore mode should jump to pits, car reset etc etc etc. But I have yet to see a single valid reason for forced cockpit.
I want a hardcore mode, and I want it restricted to the cockpit view. I use an FOX of 90 degrees, and I agree it's not a 'realistic' view in so much as distortion can be large. However, there is no way, until massive screens become commonplace, to achieve a realistic FOV AND have a good view of the mirrors, instruments, and your sides.
So quit moaning about the FOV being unrealistic as there is no viable alternative.
You run at 90 FOV and that is fine and I run 63 FOV. I have NO problems with that at all. How would you YOU like to be forced a lower FOV in the area of 60-65, which is what Papy do in hardcore mode?
If you are going to force equal view setting on everyone in a Hardcore mode then you HAVE TO FORCE a set FOV for all. If you dont then everyone is free to change their FOV and so not everyone has the same view. So what has been gained by forcing cockpit mode?
The whole key to this debate can be summed up in the following question and I bet NOBODY that want forced cockpit view can answer this.
How is a cockpit view with 90 FOV more realistic than a custom bonnet cam with 60 FOV?
At the moment there is NO NEED to force cockpit view on people that dont want it. I say this as a die hard cockpit view user, but that is MY choice. When dirty windscreen or other effects that would put cockpit users at a disadvantage are introduced then it becomes more of an issue and will need to be looked at.
As you say, there is no fully 'realistic' representation that we can put on a monitor so why should one mode, that is just as unrealistic as any of the others, be the one that is forced.
Yep force no restart, jump to pits etc etc as these are equal for everyone and would improve the race experience for all.
Forcing cockpit mode has nothing to do with FOV realism. It's about sitting inside your car on one side at a reasonable distance from the windscreen, that's all it is for.
For those who say that other views can have no advantage, you are incorrect. If they had no advantage you wouldn't be using them. Driving from the roof allows a clearer view of the track ahead and the cars around you. Driving from the bumper removes all obstacles from your sight, ie: your dash and car. Driving from the middle of the car has an obvious advantage and is as unrealistic as the former two views mentioned.
For those who are starved for FPS and are using Wheels view I'm sorry but that's life, time to upgrade if you want to enjoy driving from inside the car. It happened to me just today, bought a new game that is going to run like a pig until I buy the new half a gig of RAM that I don't have the money for. Video game development isn't going to come to a screaming halt to wait for those of us who have obsolete or insufficient hardware.
Sorry Woz but it's a big mistake!!!
For me, Cockpit View is mandatory in an Hard Core Mode ...... but not FOV regulation.
You can use all FOVs you want, but ...... IN-CAR.
You prefere FOV 64° .... go with 64°!
I prefere another FOV ... ok, I use it .......... but IN-CAR!
I mean fixed ... the cockpit, not the view
Of course I can move my "seat" fore and back but not up and down and not, of course ..... left and right!!!
I'm sorry, but I still completely disagree that there is an advantage to NOT using cockpit view. It is a DISadvantage. Big deal, you can see more of the track around you. If you'd be able to focus on my driver in a replay, you would see him turning his head constantly when there is traffic around. I can see traffic coming in my mirror (rearview) and when that traffic leaves my mirror, I see which side of me he moved to. Then I am constantly looking out that side for him. I am just fine driving like this as I now have the experience and the knowledge of the tracks to be able to continue without looking forwards. Therefore, the "above the car" driver no longer has that advantage since I see the same as him. It's called track awarenes, or is it racecraft that most know it as?
The disadvantage of driving NOT in cockpit view is that you cannot "feel" what the car is doing as well. This is both above and in wheels view. I ran wheels view from the time S2 came out until November for framerates. I hated it, because I was use to cockpit view and the feedback it gives. But I had to live with it because it was the difference between being able to run LFS or not. Wheels view is not an advantage because your focus is drawn to the front wheels and the apex rather than where it should be out ahead on the track.
Take away the "advantage" of someone using wheels or chase view by your track awareness and side looking, and the advantage strongly goes to the driver using cockpit view.
note, when I did use wheels view back then, I also changed the driver's position so that it was the same as sitting in the driver's seat rather than in the middle of the wheels. That way, if I ignored the fact that my wheels were visable, I could still feel like I was sitting correctly in the car. I am also an avid cockpit driver (now that I have the PC power) and don't like it any other way. I only argue this point because of everyone claiming that other views have such an advantage, and my opinion is obviously that they are at a big disadvantage when driving anything different than cockpit. That, and I'd never want to be forced to drive a certain way, therefore do not agree with this "hardcore mode" that springs up all the time. All other hardcore options that have to do with the way the races take place are great ideas, ie. fixed setups, fixed fuel, tire usage, etc.
I use custom view, and it is using the full vertical view which gives a higher point of view for seeing apexes and looking over crests. In cockpit view for most cars, their is obstructions of view, but that isn't what makes me slower, it is the lower seating/viewing position that affects me... especially when on low graphics and a horizon or flat track could flicker. So seeing from a higher point of view is better, and there isn't "chance" when approaching corners, I can see things a whole lot clearer than that of someone using cockpit view. I can see OVER the South City barriers/walls, can see ahead of cars in front of me incase of accidents, can look into turns and judge my approach far better... overall, making me more consistent.
Ever since I used cockpit view in S1, I was good... but soon after I found myself using the high-custom-view which made me even better, and more consistent. Helps, and may or may not give me an advantage to you, but I sure would like to think it does.
Saying that you cannot feel what the car is doing is a bunch of crock!!! You feel and see just as many vibrations as you would in cockpit view. If you have your G force effects on, then that is what you are getting at. But turning those all to 0 is what you want to do no matter what view you choose. Note that my high-custom-view has the front body/hood showing... so I have a sense of where my sides are no matter what car I choose. And I can see beside me MUCH better with this custom view (@ 90 FOV).
Go and sit in your car, in your normal driving position and look through the windscreen and focus on the road as you would when driving. You have to lower your eyes to look at the speedo (Unless you are a ricer in which case you have to raise you head to look over the top of the dash )
While you are aware of the mirrors and speedo you have to move your head/eyes to look at them because of the way your eyes and vision work. While you have near 180deg peripheral vision your actual focused vision is over a very narrow range.
Unless you FORCE a set FOV as well as view mode then person in cockpit mode with a high FOV has view advantages over the player on bumper cam with a low FOV. In this situation the user with cockpit mode has the advantage over the bumper cam user.
So how is being allowed a high FOV in cockpit mode any less fair than using a different view?
Papy were single minded in that they locked the FOV so EVERYONE had the same view. They also forced everyone to use the same graphics eye candy, smoke levels etc etc etc. There was NO visual advantage for ANYONE so it was FAIR TO EVERYONE because everyone was FORCED to use exactly the same settings.
If you want a level playing field then the Papy option is the only option. FOV along with all related graphics must be forced on people. Anything less has NO benefit and does not actually result in what you think it does.
Trouble is that if those that want forced cockpit view thought it would also FORCE them to drive at a set FOV that they had NO control over you will propably find support for the idea falls away quickly.
So you see, just forcing cockpit mode does NOT result in the fair playing field many feel it will bring. Those that can cope with high FOV have advantages over those on lower more realistic and natural FOV.
Again I ask the question....
How is a cockpit view with 90 FOV more realistic than a custom bonnet cam with 60 FOV?
I drive cockpit but could care less what you use. Fair clean and focused racing is ALL that matters. If someone has to use chase or bonnet cam to be able to race fair clean and focused then let them use it. We all gain in the end!
Ahhhh, now I understand what you are saying: People are deliberately disadvantaging themselves by using inferior views and therefore are making things more difficult for themselves rather than just use cockpit view. And here's silly old me thinking that that human nature drives improvement of one's situation for personal gain and competitiveness. All along everyone's actually trying to be slower. Well, that clears up my confusion about why there is some minor opposition to a hardcore mode.
Me too changing server you'll find thousand servers you like.
I dont understand why a little number of servers in HC-Mode "a_la_Papy" (no FOV fixed) ..... seems like a Danger for LFS community!
In NR2003? Nope for sure ..... One thing is HardCore Mode and another thing is Fixed setup.
Like in Netkar .... In-car fixed (FOV only fore-back) and, if you want, Fixed setup
Dunno ..... in fact, I never said.
IMHO 60 FOV is a little irksome, but if one likes it ....
But that required a FORCED FOV. which will be very unpopular.
Papy HC mode FIXED fov at about 60 BTW.
BTW due to view distortion you only really see corners as you would IRL when your FOV is about 50 and below. Just in case you did not realise this as well. The higher you go over that FOV the more the corner appears flatter than it should and the more fisheye the view becomes.
Now do you start to see the ramifications of what you ask?
If you do NOT lock FOV with forced cockpit they their is no equal ground that you are after. But locked means you will upset many people who don't like the FOV forced on them.
To prove how stupid forcing cockpit mode without locked FOV is I have attached an image with 4 different views.
Top left, top right and bottom left are all cocckpit views with different FOV and by your logic ALL of them should be allowed in your version of hardcore mode.
The final image, bottom right, is a custom view with fov 65. This image is NOT hardcore by your definition and so will not be allowed in your version of hardcore mode. You will allow the cockpit mode with the widest FOV setting but not this.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE LOGIC TO ME, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
If you can explain why the 4th image is not hardcore while the first 3 are I will instantly change my view and support forced cockpit view. The trouble is there is NO justification you can use as the final image is more realistic than the extreme FOV cockpit view.
You're assuming that when a hardcore mode appears we'll have the same view options as now, aren't you. You have to look at the big picture.
I think it's highly likely that Scawen will implement a view system so that people can use hardcore mode with a view to their liking. Some will sit low and far back (as far as the car allows), others will sit higher and towards the front of the car. When the in car view is adjustable (without using the custom views) in terms of up/down, fore/aft and even left/right (but only by a much smaller amount), then we can all be safe and sound using a combination of realistic views and monitor usefulness.
As far as I can see the top left and the bottom right image you posted are identical, so where's the problem? One you made using an unhardcore mode custom camera, the other you make using a legit cockpit view.
I can almost guarantee that Scawen will take the views of those who feel they are disadvantaged in the cockpit into reasonable consideration, but also bear in mind that it'll be mostly restricted to some leagues. Don't like HC mode? Don't join that league then. It really is a simple, elegant and, I thought, fool proof solution to the HC problem. Why can't the two or three people in the thread defending it mentally (and without listening to the other people) take this is?
Please answer my old .... er question on Papy and their choice to create an Hard Core Mod with Fixed Cockpit View for that masterpiece called NR2003 
)
What I dream ... from the beginning.