Then you didnt actually look at the pictures at all then because they are nothing alike. Top left is cockpit mode at 40 FOV while the other is a custom view positioned on the dash at 60 FOV. Look again and you might see the difference.
You just dont get it do you.
Your single minded focus that the ONLY thing that is "realistic" and "hardcore" is cockpit mode is blinding your judgemeent. You don't even appear to care what FOV is used as long as its cockpit mode.
I put some images up that I know break all argument so you try to justify you argument saying other views might be allowed and I dont see the bigger picture. I could dig further and the your argument just gets weaker and weaker.
Should someone using a 301 platform and a real dash cluster be forced to see a second copy of the dash. Could you get a setup any more hardcore, yet unless they use cockpit view they can get lost. Using that setup I wouldnt want ANY CLUTTER on the screen.
So to allow REAL HARDCORE people you have to allow a mode without the car visible at all. Oh no, thats like wheels only mode so now LFS will have to check that the people using this view in hardcore mode have the right hardware or they are not hardcore enough to use that mode.
You see the Papy solution was fixed position, fixed FOV and graphics settings. EVERYONE had the same view but non of you on the side of forced cockpit want that because you might be forced to use an FOV you dont like.
We have a limit to what can be handled with simulation in the home environment so what does it matter if the other people can see the dashboard on their monitor or not. Most of us will be sat at a desk probably on an office chair looking at a PC screen with headphones on.
I can see the bigger picture with great clarity I just wonder if you can?
They are remarkably alike, and I could drive with any of them. I can see the differences, but they are very slight in my opinion.
You just dont get it do you.
Your single minded focus that allowing ANY adjustment to the view in the 'realistic', 'hardcore' mode is blinding your judgement. You don't even appear to care about the end result, you just have an issue with the idea as a whole, so you go to any length to find flaws.
You put up some pictures to show how similar most of the views are, that do nothing to strengthen your argument, nor damage ours. You dig further, but whats the point, as you are making very little progress in this thread other than alienate people. No arguement get's stronger or weaker.
Indeed no, someone using the 301 platform will have similar preferences to normal players. They'd probably use a narrower FOV to make use of surround screens, which will tend to hind the in game dashboard, but it's not a problem. I can see my dashboard in LFS, and I even have the in game wheel turned on for added feedback. Maybe you wouldn't want clutter, but that's just personal preference, which should remain even in a hardcore mode.
I don't see this point you're making. Why would they need to have an external view? LFS provides the 'interior' of the cars, so an LX is nice and airy, and a UFR is less so. With your method EVERY player will need a custom 301 for EACH car. That's just silly, and you're going as far as is humanly possible to pick holes in the topic.
I am quite happy to use any FOV, but if you use a 'realistic' view (where realistic depends on the position and width of your monitor) then it's porbably that you can't see your mirrors or your dash. Now, in real life I have to move my eyes to see the dash and the mirrors. And guess what, I have to in LFS at 90FOV too. So whats the difference? Well, with your silly idea of restricing the view to 'realistic' FOV's people won't see their mirrors without pressing buttons, and thats even LESS realistic.
I can see the bigger picture, but your whining, ranting and raving proves to me that you don't really, you just have a really strong, inflexible opinion about something you haven't thought through.
See, posting like that is neither big, nor clever.
Woz is absolutely correct in his arguement. Everyone's main point of "hardcore mode" is forced cockpit view so that everyone sees the same and no one has the "advantage" of an exterior view/wheels view therefore the advantage of seeing more of the track and more around them. Bringing forced FOV into play is exactly the same as bringing forced cockpit into play. If you use a higher FOV so that you can see your mirrors and about half of beside you out the side windows, then you have the same advantage as everyone claims that exterior and wheels view have, and that is seeing more around their car and more of the track than someone who creates a realistic environment with view and perspective.
Sorry mates ... do you know the word COMPROMISE?
We are talking about SIMULATION.
No simulation will be ..... REAL, and so everyone can debate for years .... years .... years .... without solution.
I'd like (please) an HC Mode for LFS before I am ....... ninety Thi is a view (fixed) that I consider a good compromise for all It's the "default view" when you start the first time LFS, with digital tachometer and mirror ... " left...ed " .... no more!
I tested with 3 different desktop monitors and 4 different laptop and
it's .... OK
Do you want to find the "perfect" solution? OK ...... i'll be ninety when you .... don't find solution!
While we debate about "realistic FOV" and other "philososophisms" ..... NR2003 players with their HC-MODE are playing great & fun championships
I will try to make this non personal and I will not copy or mock you as you have just done......
But before I start I will point out that it does not matter that the dial cluster in my 301 example would be same dash on each car. I am 100% sure that if I were to give you such a setup you would not say "Please remove the dial clusters I want cockpit view instead. That would NOT happen and you know that so do not even try to defend that position.
Right, here is your point reduced as far as it will go, I just want to make sure I am correct in this. Please just say YES or NO for each of these points. They DO NOT need to be expanded on, JUST YES OR NO.
1) YOU are happy with cockpit view because that makes YOU feel as though LFS is more realistic sat at your desk at home while you PLAY LFS.
2) You are HAPPY for ME to use any FOV, even the 90+FOV that you use, which in reality is like looking through a fisheye viewport.
3) What you are NOT happy for me to use is ANY OTHER VIEW apart from cockpit even if it look more realistic that some of the cocckpit examples I gave.
Here is something to think on...
What if the 90 FOV you use was thought to be unrealistic. It does not match the view you see when you are sat in a car so YOU should not be allowed to use it. Forget that its available in the game and assume it will be removed because a fisheyee view on the world is not realistic?
LFS is now more realistic and hardcore so that should make you happy?
What if the hardcore mode you want is implemented BUT with a forced seat position AND FOV locked at 60 as per Papy? People alway quote NR2003 mode so that must be the one we want.
You now have forced 6FOV and using the papy hardcore mode you must be really happy now?
Finally lets try the monitor test that everyone else that wants forced cockpit mode is AFRAID to answer.....
What size is your monitor and how far are you sat away from it?
Now we have established that because of the limitations of your equipment you should be using an FOV of 40 and that LFS WILL ENFORCE THIS.
How hardcore is that, that should make you really happy. A locked view with 40FOV because that is all your equipment will allow.
Do you see where this all leads.
Monitor/desk/house does not equal car however you look at it. 90FOV is a way you use to make up for limitations and other use other techniques. Let them.
You interest to ..... debate.
I don't.
It's not important what I've hit ... for me is important to know if http://img109.imageshack.us/im ... /ottimocompromesso1yb.gif
is for you, for other readers and (mainly) for LFS Crew a GOOD FIXED VIEW for an (eventual) LFS HC-MODE: no possible HC-MODE ( imho the more interesting way to play a racesim) if you allow ... non-sense/ridiculous views.
All of this talk of restricted FOV is just stupid. I personally would have no problem with a forced cockpit view, but I would NOT want to see a forced FOV.
There are too many variables at play here, even discounting people's personal preference. What is a 60* FOV going to look like on a 16:9 display or, heaven forbid, a triple monitor setup? LIKE ASS! Forcing cockpit view is strict enough, but forcing field of view is just silly.
Even having a forced cockpit view would be a bad thing under certain setups. There are a few people who use real gauge clusters with their sims. For them, displaying the gauges on screen is worthless. They should have the choice of using a "dash cam" or something similar. Taking that away would just turn them away and stifle innovation.
Nobody seems to have a problem with disallowing pitting, disallowing car resets, monitoring tire usage, etc. The big point of contention is the on screen view. In the end, I'm sure the devs would never implement something so controversial so it's probably best to just forget about it ever happening.
I hope you are joking!
What's the problem if you will find 5 servers in HC-MODE FIXED VIEW and 95.000.000.000.000.000........... servers like you prefere?
Why this .... "fear"?
I only made it as personal as you did. If you didn't, then I didn't.
Give someone in a third world country microsoft windows and he won't complain. Give a Linux user Windows and he will. Give me a 301 and I won't complain, give a 301 user certain 'views' and he might, as it's what he's used to.
You really need to work on your discussion skills. It's utterly pointless to try and reduce a point of view to one word answers. You will not go far in life with this style, but to ease your mind I shall give you one word answers.
YES
YES
YES
Indeed, as long as we are in the same boat, with the same basic restrictions then I'm happy. I use 90 as it makes me quicker, others use 40 as it makes them quicker. Compromise, which is the thing you've COMPLETELY lacked in ALL your posts, is as stated above the necessary thing.
YES
Fine by me. Lock the FOV, or make it variable within limits, it's all beans to me. I'll still be quick, and slow people will still be slow, but we'll all have the same challenges which is the point.
Yeah, doesn't bother me. As long as it's in cockpit (as I've NEVER driven a car from outside of the cockpit except when the car was 1ft long). Give me whatever. The difficulty is when you have a single 'mode' that covers all the cars. For me I use 90 degrees so I can see my mirrors and more peripherally without having to press buttons. But if everyone is in the same boat (car?), and we all know we have restricted vision or whatever then it's all cool with me. I don't think TrackIR is an advantage, so I'd be quite happy to allow people to use them too to look around a bit.
19" diagonally, and I'm about 34" away from the screen.
I see where you are leading it - to a pointless conclusion. When the fact sinks in that we are NOT playing real life, we are playing a representation of real life on a 2D screen, and as such certain settings HAVE to be unrealistic in order to play competatively. I use 90. Others use 40 despite all the problems. If we used LFS's default which is the best of both worlds then what does it matter. If we have 40 and I crash into you at EVERY corner you promise you'll never ever even once get even remotely angry? Or should we allow a bit more vision and accept the fisheye a bit.
Indeed let them. As long as the viewpoint is roughly where a real persons eyes would be, i.e. IN the car, on the correct side, without the wheels being visible and WITH a-pillars etc getting in the way, then I'm happy. 40, 50, 90 FOV's don't bother me, I will still overtake you in the same way. Until the day Alonso climbs out of his car at 200mph, crawls down a bendy stick 20ft behind his car or sits on the front wing to drive then hardcore mode HAS to be cockpit view. There is no other way. Within vague limitations of this I'm not that fussy about what FOV's people have as that just comes down to personal preference - do you want distorted views but more visibility or more realistic views but the constraints of a monitor. That in itself shouldn't be forced, and I don't believe anyone is suggesting it should be.
There are not that many servers (at least for people in the U.S.A.), so restricting even a small portion of them would really lower the number of servers available for people like me to join.
Like I said, I have no problem with being forced into cockpit mode (I use that anyway), but I would have a BIG problem with being forced to use, say, 60* field of view. Especially if I'm running a widescreen, multimonitor view. A person using three monitors running 120* is the same as a person using one monitor running 40*. If you try to force ANY field of view setting, one of those two people is going to get screwed.
At present, if you didnt know, LFS will automatically adjusts for monitor aspect ratio so that you can set an FOV of 60 and if you use 3 monitors you will get the view rendered at the correct FOV but extended to fill the 3 screens.
FOV is just the focal length of the lens being used to render the image, the screen rendered to is what controls the width and height of the image.
There is a setting for this in options call something like screen width adjusted FOV or something similar. So if you have 3 screens then you can run realistic FOV and still view correctly. In fact Scawen uses a 3 monitor system from posts he has made on this forum. So NO forced FOV is not an issue at all in the situation you state and should not be used as an argument against locked FOV because it is not valid.
But the point was they are all things that make YOU happy, even at the expense of others that might be effected by your wishes. It was not to help my argument but to highlight this to you.
Finally you are starting to see. Read your quote again, can you see how the arguments you put up are valid from my perspective as well. In fact I think you realised this while you were typing it from the "I see where you are leading it"
The Papy solution was fixed view and fixed FOV of about 60. If you did'nt like it tough because everyone was in the same boat graphics wise. This is the ONLY way to go if you force a given view. Not a half baked you must use this view BUT can tweak and change it as you wish because then it serves no purpose. If its forced to be realistic then 90FOV should NOT be allowed because it is NOT realistic.
A cockpit with 90FOV is no less realistic than a bonnet cam at 60FOV as my image post earlier highlighted.
LFS, for 99.9999% of us is a simulation that you run on a home PC sat at a desk. All of us use different techniques to help feel more involved with the simulation and we are all different.
Some people out there don't even use a DFP, three peddles and an h-shifter, can you imagine that. They have to configure their low lock wheel response so its flatter in the middle to cope with the lack of lock. Should we say these control challenged people can only drive cars that their wheel lock can simulate so they don't have an unfair advantage when trying to catch oversteer due to the geared steering rate they have over those of us using more realistic controllers?
We all try to make up for these limitations in our own way. Some, myself included, use cockpit mode. Some use high FOV even though it distorts the image and causes track corners to appear flatter than they actually are because they can see more. Other use custom bonnet cams or other views that allow them to be safe on the track.
In the end does it really matter to you that much that a person you races might use a different view than you, when you admit to using 90FOV to make up for view limitations, when in the end we are all after the same thing.......
Good hard racing online with people that want a serious race. This is what most people want with hardcore mode.
All fine with me.... In the old days you wouldn't have any FOV options.... did people refuse to buy racing sims because of it?
All I do with any sim these days is adjust the seat as hi as it will go, and adjust the distance from the dash to where it is comfortable (sometimes back sometimes forward) and thats it.
GTL and LFS are the first mp racing sims I've ever run on a 19" CRT, I ran GPL, GTR2002 etc on 17" or less... I don't see the problem.
Mebbe its just a "My way is the right way, and your way is wrong...."
Not everyone will be happy, but it seems the minority sure wants to be vocal +)
Usually in prime time in the US there are 10 times as many LFS servers as players (mebbe even more than that) a hardcore server would NOT reduce the number of available servers, as there are 200 other servers you can't race on because of the lack of anyone to race with!! Ya never know... you might find that the players that are online actually congregate on a HC server because they prefer it, and you might get used to it... heaven forbid.
That is VERY different to only 0.0001% of people want HC mode. I said that for most we accept we are sat at a desk and make compromises to make up for that fact to allow us to feel more involved in the simulation.
-----------------------------
You can ALL carry on mis-reading, ignoring and taking what I say out of context to try to justify and force YOUR views on people because YOU think its realistic. You DO NOT care if other people find other views realistic because that DOES NOT fit with YOUR view on what is realistic.
You care that a view mode might give someone an advantage yet you do not care if a FOV will do the same or that people are using a wheel with 300deg lock in a tintop that has 720deg lock. They can catch oversteer easier because they dont have to move the wheel the right distance, how is that realistic?
I have said it before and say it again.........
YOU are sat at a desk in your HOUSE using plastic controllers. You are NOT in a car and it does not matter if you can see an A piller or not because you ARE looking at a PC monitor that is giving a 2D representation of a 3D environment through a lens that in most cases gives a distorted view on the world compared to what you would see through your eyes while sat in a car.
NOTHING YOU CAN SAY WILL CHANGE THAT FACT, and no game mode view will change it either.
The real funny part is that when forced FOV is raised then people come in saying don't lock FOV yet they support the idea of cockpit mode forced on people. The only reason people don't care if cockpit mode is forced is because they use cockpit mode so it does not effect them. But say lock FOV as well and then it effects them so they are interested. Can none of you see a problem with this. Its alway a case of do what you want as long as I am not effected.
Am I the only person that uses cockpit mode that understands that some people might prefer a different view on the world and that as long as they race well and clean I can have a good race?
There is nothing else I can say that wont be taken out of context or that will NOT fall on deaf ears. Not one of you is even willing to see that there are situations where forcing a view is not great but the rest of HC mode is still valid. You are all focused on this ONE thing above ANYTHING ELSE.
Flame away all you feel, I am sure most people will at least see the point I am trying to get across and understand it. The rest of you don't even care what I say because it effects what YOU think is right.
quote=Woz "The real funny part is that when forced FOV is raised then people come in saying don't lock FOV yet they support the idea of cockpit mode forced on people. The only reason people don't care if cockpit mode is forced is because they use cockpit mode so it does not effect them. But say lock FOV as well and then it effects them so they are interested. Can none of you see a problem with this. Its alway a case of do what you want as long as I am not effected.
Am I the only person that uses cockpit mode that understands that some people might prefer a different view on the world and that as long as they race well and clean I can have a good race?"
[/quote]
I just wanted to highlight woz's text here as this is the entire arguement that has been going on for days and pages now. I've said the same and I've agreed with him. This just needed highlighted.
You force an FOV that I don't use, then I can't race you. You force a cockpit view that JimboBobbi can't use, then you'll never race him. Forced anything alienates other's in the community so that they cannot race with the majority or with the "elite" because they feel they are better because they use cockpit view. I'm not argueing to force FOV, I'm just used it as an example way back in post #8 about the forced cockpit view. I don't want either forced on anyone, even though I use cockpit view. I think woz is saying the same thing. It's not that he wants a forced FOV, it's being used as an example and it is working. You say force cockpit and that's A-OK, but when someone says "then force FOV as well", then you're all bent outta shape over it.
We need stuff that affects the racing forced, ie, the pitstops, tire and fuel usage, etc. as well as joining midrace, "teleporting" to pits, and restarts. Those are the points that affect the racing, not how you look at the stinkin game.
WOZ - get off your high horse, come back down to ground level, and see the world as it really it. The point of hardcore mode is primarily to get rid some of the aids and some of the silly viws. Why can't you accept that a lot of people want it for league racing. I don't want F9/10 overlays, I want visible tyre conditions. I'd ideally want voice recognition for the setup changes but thats not feasable so I am happy to accept the F11/12 overlay (though a tweak or two might be nice). I want everyone to drive from within the car, so that they can't see the wheels (except the tops of them in open wheelers) and their view gets onbstructed by a-pillars. But I don't really care what FOV as long as it's within sensible limits (and I trust Scavier and the Betatesters to define that).
I don't give a monkeys if the FOV isn't ultra realistic. I don't give a rats arse if steering lock doesn't match my wheel. There are some concessions to realism you HAVE to make, either due to technology, computing power, development times or money. But you CANNOT see to differentiate between the sensible suggestions and silly overexcited ones.
From now on you are on my ignore list. In 3 years of LFSing only you and Dethred have ever made it onto an ignore list, and until you chill out and sort your thoughts out I don't want to listen to your random drivvel. Thanks, bye.
I agree with hardcore mode. Would be really cool in leagues. But I don't agree about the forced cockpit. Then just make it without that 'only 2wheels on the screen'-thing. But I'd like it if I could move the cam a bit where I want it. In a real car you only concentrate on the road. You don't see a bit of the dashboard and the wheel. A computerscreen is too small to have it all on it. That's why I set the cam just behind the wheel. At the height of the windscreen.
It shure helps the discussion to block the guy you don't agree with.
If I understand your post correct you just want a cockpit mode so you can get rid of those driving with views high above their car, or with wheels view.
If so, I don't see the point in forced cockpit, why not just forced inside of the car instead, you can put your view anywhere aslong its inside the car.
Then people will put it in the middle, or somewhere equally unrealistic. I'm all for allowing adjustments to fit peoples preferences, just within certain boundaries.
And I didn't add him because I disagree with him, I ignore him because he's throwing his toys about as though he's just been stabbed, just because some people don't agree with him. I don't want or need to read that immaturity.
Some Potentially Useful Hardcore Mode Server-Side Options
Forced Cockpit. Allowing head-tilt, seat adjustment and FOV adjustment. Forced manual gearbox.
No artificial driving aids including:
No auto-clutch.
No auto-throttle blip or cut.
Set Max Fuel Levels.
Set Min Pit Stops.
Set maximum number of tyres available per car.
Blue Light at end of pit lane.
Yellow flag penalties.
"Live" blend line on pit exit with penalty for any breach.
Closed server after qualifying ends (cannot connect to server while race in progress).
No telepitting during race.
No auto-reset of car.
Reduced chat options. (3 F-Keys only, for example)
Fixed pit boxes for each car (must stop in your pit box only).
Longer repair time in pit.
Allow 2-car team entries where two drivers must share the same pitbox.
... and much more.
I really hope for a detailed and feature-packed hardcore mode that shapes online public racing and reduces the number of private servers in the list. This would make Live For Speed bigger than ten bears.
when you .... don't find solution!
with a single poor monitor