cause there are many crashers out there, i thought about a global ban file
with all those stupid ppl in...
so is it possible to create a ban file in PHP (I do think so)...
what about creating a website where ppl can send replays to and the
admins of this website add those crashers to a MySQL DB...
and out of this DB you can create on the fly a ban file which you can
download an put into you LFS server folder...
So we can create an Anti Crasher Association (ACA)...
So data like the following can be collected to:
- LFS World name (necessary)
- Nicks (all Nicks known of this person)
- Skins (unauthorised use of skins)
- and so on....
That would give end users the ability to revoke other players licenses which could be abused.
There is a shared ban file between some 24/7 servers, but I dont think we should have a fully global ban file or if we do, we need LFS themselves to administer it ... which would be easier done by revoking licenses.
revoking licenses isn't the right thing i think!
but if there are independent ppl, who administrate this crasher-db and so
can offer a "global" ban file, everyone can decide if he will use this file!
no one is forced and of course the replay and the person (crasher) must be
investigated!
I've thought about a similar thing quite a lot in the last few months. Just another one of those things I dont have time to throw together.
Basically making a database to hold all the information and then automatically spitting out a ban file when request is dead easy (see the ban file format in the FAQ programmers forum thread). This means that every X hours the servers administrator could make up a cronjob to wget the file, shutdown the server, replace the ban file and start them back up again (as you imply).
The big problem, as Becky says, is the "security" aspect (for racers). My only thought was to have a submission requiring a replay, and then an independant body (i.e. a group of server administrators) to be trusted with the list for requested bans and to make judgement.
The other alternative is some kind of peer to peer system, where by every X hours a client talks to the other clients and merges their bans file. I much prefer this idea tbh. Although it is a lot more work and still requires a shutdown of the server (iirc the bans file is only read and written to at certain times, so blindly replacing it doesnt work).
Just incase you missed it amongst the other points I mentioned, but there already is a ban file that is shared between several 24/7 servers where the admin's trust each other to treast it responsibly.
I think the main issue is that the ban file they share, may not contain people that have been banned on a target server. Plus they're doing it manually. Why bother if you can make things automagical?
Because only 1/4 of the replays that are submitted to it are accepted, a lot of end users have very different opinios on what a wrecker is and some would have you banned just for causing a ninja to break 15 metres earlier for a bend as they lap you.
It has happened to me sometimes to encounter a group of noobs who blamed and banned me for their troubles. So many would be against a black mark just for a single ban. I think, the database should have a value like frequency of bans per kms done (and per other racers) to calculate an "annoying rate" and allow host owner set a cutoff level.
Having learned games theory (that's pure maths ) and works like "Theory of Collective Reputations", I think the best way would be just a reputations database, which would contain just evaluations of each person by others. Not democratic, right, but very useful: you may just look at a aggregated juditions of others. Unfortunately, the amount of players is quite big to prevent manipulations (in reality, in the times when recomendations weren't always laudatory, the practice was that giving a good recommendation for an unreliable person was recorded too, so everybody cared about whom they recommended).
But thats like saying we shouldn't be democratic because people like Hitler, or the National Front exist and theres the potential for them to get in power. Yes thats true, but a lot of good still comes out of it.
What I'm trying to say is that whilst the process is acceptable, its the "final judgement" that may not be. At the end of the day, how many wrongly accused people really get banned? I'm fairly confident that most people who are banned, aren't just because of the strengths of 1 replay alone.
Plus whats so different than the process being automatic and not? I'll openly admit I dont know the current process, but I'm sure that the server admins dont sit around and discuss each person in their ban files, before merging them.
Well at least for bans that are to be issued on our servers, the MPRs are reviewed individually by several server admins. We decide together if a ban is appropriate, and if so what the duration should be.
That said, when we DO ban, we dunnarf ban. When deliberate, malicious wrecking evidence is unequivocal, we ban for life. Such cases usually follow roadblocks in chicanes/organized wrecking, clear indication that the wreckers have been warned and are aware of the potential consequences of their actions, etc. and continue to wreck. Those guys are toast. Also in those extreme cases, one MPR as evidence is also quite sufficient for us.
I'm not personally in favour of automatic bans. Other servers ban for different lengths of time from us, and some of them with more reasons and some with less. It's still got to be up to the individual server admins. The most important thing is for server admins to be AWARE of the wreckers. How they then proceed is up to them.
Incidentally, a server restart is no longer required to invoke a new ban file. The ban list is loaded every time a new guest connects and is saved every time a new ban is made. Scawen rocks.
::hangs head in shame:: Eddy and kLay are buggers, I swear! But yeah, they're great fun. I think that was the night they sneaked into a FOX race midrace with a couple of BF1s, and stormed up the field. I also have an MP3 made by one of our other guys, who recorded us in Teamspeak that same night and put together the "LFS Swearathon" track, which is absolutely hilarious.. but obviously it's a bit rude. I would post a link, but it's got a LOT of swearing in it!
Not enough admins, IMO, have signed up so far. 2 big US servers have, though, so that's great. We'd love to get the thing properly off the ground, but we need more enthusiasm from other servers to warrant the time required to do it.
Typically when an MPR is submitted, the offender is still on the server when the admin arrives. At this point, if they're STILL wrecking we'd ban 1 day immediately (as if vote-banned), pending MPR review.
Sometimes (rarely) they're not wrecking when we get there, and sometimes (a little more often) they've already left, but you can tell that something's definitely gone on because the other drivers are hopping up and down, and so it's down to the MPR. Usually this is being reviewed simultaneously by another admin. The admin on the server awaits the "ban or no ban" (thanks to Noel Edmunds for that one!) to invoke the 1 day ban.
That gives all server admins one day to review the ban, pool opinions, and then issue the extended ban or even the unban.
About 1 in 4 MPRs result in a life-long ban. I think it would probably be more, if people waited a little longer before saving the replay and submitting it. Whether or not we can "sense" that a wrecker is a wrecker is unfortunately not at issue. In order for a ban to last more than the customary 1 day, solid evidence is needed. Even if all our server admins are agreed that a wrecker IS a wrecker, we've established our own internal rule that we won't ban for life without ruddy good evidence.
I did issue a 1-month ban last week. A driver was climbing the field by deliberately braking late into corners, and nudging the guy in front enough to go wide and lose line and position. Another server admin (who was racing at the time) pointed it out to me, I joined the server and watched for two races. I was satisfied at the end of that, that the action was deliberate and had agreed with the other server admin that it was inappropriate behaviour. I banned for one month, but I EXPLAINED to the offender WHY the ban was being implemented before doing so.
Apart from these very occasional instances of subtlety, I do believe that a wrecker is inherently of wrecker mentality, and therefore not ever welcome on our servers.
Kev, such instances as the one you describe I think would be well handled with a server admin at hand. On those occasions it would be ideal if the wrecker report form we have were used to summon an admin. It's so much harder to see what's REALLY going on if you're trying to race at the same time.
I've seen a lot of instances (particularly on demo, but on S2 too) of wreckers being very apologetic after wrecking. Someone who elbows you in the face, then apologises, then elbows you in the face again and apologises.. you've got to wonder if that's their idea of a sense of humour. Either way, the way I see it, someone who won't learn - who actively negates to change their ways, when they conflict with the fair driving we usually experience - is a wrecker by default. A wrecker by omission, if you like.
I have no problem "bullying" a newbie into listening and learning. As a server admin, I'll follow them, shout advice, and send them to spectate if they don't pay attention. I'll force them to start from the pitlane, or re-spectate them if they rejoin a race into the heart of the pack at the front. I'll spectate them if the way they're driving is effectively blocking passage under a Blue Flag. If they refuse to play by the "rules", there isn't really much fun to be had in such circumstances.
We created a "Beginners" server specifically to cater for newcomers. They can cut their teeth on the tracks and cars there, without fear (largely) of being shouted at. It also means that, as server admins, we can point them to that server. In some small way, we can justify to ourselves, the act of kicking them off our main race servers without saying "get stuffed, n0000bo1d!" Everyone BEGINS somewhere. Where we go from there is entirely down to determination and mindset.
Probably the biggest disadvantage for it at the moment is the lack of exposure the scheme has got, directly to server admins. I don't know if it's the case, but it's possible that word hasn't filtered through from the forum to those who would actually do the administering on other servers. We advertise our report form on our server's welcome message too, but I suspect most server admins don't race anywhere but on their own servers. I suppose I should actively hunt down the server admins (rather than team members, if it's the same as on our servers where not all team members have been honed into admin-minded peeps yet) and invite them to join. Til you caused me to think about it, I just figured they knew about it and didn't care.
Yep, definitely. The one we have at the moment was originally for our servers only. It was really when I was approached by another team's admin for inclusion that the whole idea of a "clean servers club" grew potential legs and developed some horsepower.
I'm going to thrust this, and Fordie's, threads under the nose of our chief PHP mega-nut this evening, and ask him to power up a subdomain from one of our more generic domains, light a fire under MySQL and get the thing off the ground proper. Then we can go to the server admins of other teams, and beg them to join in. I reckon we're a skip and a jump from a proper solution to the increasing wrecker problem so many seem to be experiencing at the moment. Thanks Kev!
So far I was of the opinion that all these complaints about wreckers, noobs etc. would really lead to nothing. I've seen those threads come up often enough in my LFS-time without anything ever becoming reality (except for CRC of course, but I don't consider that an even remotely close to perfect solution).
But with the "Clean Servers Club" it's different. It could really work imho . So don't you think it should have it's own thread with a title that is directed towards server admins? Where you could advertise the idea, explain how it works and invite admins to join? So this would really kick off in a larger scale?
If a thread like this already exists, and I just overlooked it, forget about the suggestion
Unfortunately due to the issues with the CRC at the initial S2 Alpha release I think that the CRC will no longer be the entity it once was (i.e. pre-S1). Or are you refering to this ban sharing system as a different CRC?
Uhm sorry for not making myself clear: I was referring to the System SamH introduced here and in Fordman's thread (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.p...453#post130453). He called it "Clean Servers Club" somewhere so it would be CSC
