To recap: Demand for strategy and endangering your health, are not qualities that render an activity as "exciting" or "gratifying". Unless you disagree with that, in which case you must accept pretty much any activity that can be timed and/or scored as "sports" or "competitive activity"

Blah who cares about this stuff anyways.... why even argue about ANY points regarding oval racing being cool or not...

Clearly, nobody wants to accept the fact that racing is racing, and there is a very wide range of styles and rules for any specific racing championship. All-in-all, LFS is reaching out to people who have a love for this 'one' specific kind of racing... whether it be rally, road, road/track, drift, drag, etc. So if you are so arsed about someone getting a racing mode which you do not prefer... why bother even trying act like you understand LFS's concept.

The oval racers have their home to enjoy, as do every other group in LFS. Why can't people just leave it at that... and wait for a feature that caters to themselves, rather than moaning about the fear of getting something they don't want personally. And why can't us LFS'ers be open to try new things... to enjoy the wide range of racing LFS brings us. People who just DO NOT want to have interest in oval racing are probably deeper than a "shallow" soul... they just refuse to like something else... and that, is pretty god damn ignorant. It is like a little picky-eater kid never wanting to try a new salad dressing, and always wanting to use his Ranch dressing.

If you really cannot comprehend why people love Oval racing so much, then I don't know where you get the justification to call them shallow. What would an oval racing fan say to you too??? You'd be just as shallow to them if you prefered some other genre of motorsport. It's not the talent or the strategy that excites them, it is the racing... even if it is good or bad, close or not-close racing.

I personally don't like oval racing, Nascar, or the like.... but I can understand why those fans enjoy it. And in general, Nascar, IRL, and Champ Car are just other forms of racing that people can enjoy. And it also really all boils down to the location of such fans. You don't find many Nascar fans in Europe... and vice versa for other motorsports

But still, I must stress my point that racing is racing, no matter how you do it, or how it looks... it is just up to someone to enjoy it or not. If you don't like it, or can't put yourself in their position... is there really a reason why you should make them (and their sport) inferior?

you brought up an interesting point. however, i am not against catering for the wants of people. They want oval, they have oval. i want my powerful downforced openwheelers, i have them.

But oval racing is shallow. i just like saying it. it is intense. i like it, but it is shallow. wheeeee we go straight at about a third of the speed of sound...

I am not saying that i am a deep kinda person. Hell, i listen to immortal, play death metal, and enjoy driving like a squid. but i like being around people who see things for what they are. And i really dislike attacking me personaly with stuff like "look it up on wiki" "...buddy" "narrow minded" etc. That makes the discussion shallow.

Well, you asked what was so special about it... and it quite stupid to say that 'strategy' or any other form of racing really doesn't apply to racing on an oval. So I guess we all have different definitions of what racing is... but either way, if you want an answer for something you don't understand, it would be considerate to listen to people they way they see it and try to make sense of what you don't 'get', instead of giving a form of motorsport a name which is defined for lack of emotions and intellect... kind of a contradiction, lol!!!

I like chocolate ice cream with nuts. Vanilla is shallow. Tasty, I'll admit, but shallow. Having to eat the chocolate around the nuts (or crunch straight through them at an appropriate time) requires more strategy than just slurping straight through the vanilla.

Being in the industry I know more about how to eat ice cream than you, unless you are a confectioner or dairy farmer.

George, you seem like a thinking guy. Can you explain to me how having both left and right turns makes racing "deeper"?

First of all, a CHAMP car would be great fun. Sure, it is another open wheeler, but can you really have too many? (rhetorical, you don't need to answer that)

CHAMP cars are spec built cars for the most part with Cosworth engines. They have NO driver aids at all. They do have a push to pass button that gives them an extra 75hp and is time limited. Gee, kind of makes you wonder where A1GP got the idea. They push about 700hp. Quite a lot of car to handle.

They do still do two ovals a year, mostly for historical sake because they used to do them when CART existed. Personally, I wish they would get rid of them.

As for George, you are really just being a 'gator. You don't like oval racing. Fine. We get the point. And I suppose just because George doesn't like it, then it must be shallow. Nice Ad Hoc logic there pal. I offer this opinion. ALL racing is shallow. It is a waste of valuable resources and money that could be better spent feeding the world's poor.

I think you could label another form of racing with a word too. F1 is BORING. Sure they turn left and right, but since the only passing that gets done happens in the pits, it surely indicates that the drivers have no talent.

Just to make things clear. I don't watch much oval racing and I love F1. I love ALMS and I like CHAMP car. But that does not mean that WRC is shallow because I don't (can't in the US) follow it.

I'm obviously bored tonight, doing the laundry. As for vanilla ice cream; there is a lot to be said for the purity and the subtle nuances of the different types. You have to really know your vanilla to appreciate the finer qualities. To get the most out of the experience, you have to do your homework, test and retest, get to know it better than your mother knows you. Adding nuts and chocolate provides nothing but a distraction from the perfection.

LOL
pwn3d by ice-cream science. D'oh, the pain, the pain of it all!

Although I still watch it and still call myself a fan - F1 is a bit of a procession these days, I agree. For cheek-to-cheek racing I can't go past MotoGP - this season has been a ripper so far :up:

I'm sure a Champ car wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing or a waste of time, I just think it'd end up at the oval (most of the time) like the 8 and the BF. And everyone knows the UF1 is the ultimate oval racer!!1

Quote from Hankstar :

And everyone knows the UF1 is the ultimate oval racer!!1

Sounds like it's time you started a league devoted to the ultimate combo, Hank. Count me in.

George.. What makes oval racing shallow? Aside from the physical and literal meaning of the word, I've found this definition:

"lacking depth of intellect or knowledge; concerned only with what is obvious"

Now, I used to be a huge NASCAR fan, and I know, for fact, that NASCAR and all oval racing requires a LOT of knowledge and intellect to be successful. I think you need a new word to describe oval racing.

No matter what you think about it, I'm sure you could never contest in an upper tier of oval racing, so you have no right to belittle it. Not like it, fine, but no right to belittle it.

MAGGOT

Quote from george_tsiros :

I could start a discussion about the philosophical nature of these issues, about whether ther is any point in going round and round and how even apple peeling can have lots of strategy and be risky etc... but i have just this question:

How do you measure "strategy" ? By volume?

Because many people picked up on your shallow comment and took you down a peg about it you decide to pick up on semantic errors in my post. I take it this is because you really have nothing else to offer on the subject and realise you were wrong so are looking to deflect the subject away from your original post.

Just because YOU do not like something does not mean it is shallow or without merrit. I find F1 the most boring of all motorsport and given the choice of watching that or paint dry I know what I would pick.

That does not mean I don't understand that F1 takes great skill to drive the cars on the edge. I have great respect for the drivers.

Do you realise how shallow your comment about oval racing was I wonder?

So.... how bout' that Champ Car.... :Kick_Can_

Quote :

Champ cars are spec built cars for the most part with Cosworth engines. They push about 700hp

Last I read it was about 850hp, but this may change from season to season, as it's mostly about much boost is allowed (via the spec waste gate which also controls the push to pass). Rpms are limited by spec to 8500rpm. I think Honda also makes engines for Champ cars.

What is strange about champ cars is that no team "owns" the engines. They just "lease" an engine and support crew from Cosworth or Honda for a season (for over $1 million US). Since the engines are essentially the same, it's the setup and drivers that determine who wins.

Regarding Champ cars at ovals, they don't run high speed ovals anymore, just the low to medium speed ovals, and just 2 of these. As I previously mentioned, this would reduce the cost of racing because they ran with different nose and wings for the high speed ovals.

As far as Champ cars go in general, the current ones are like detuned F1 cars, a bit slower, no aids, but they do have the push to pass feature. Indy Racing cars have less power, but they are more aerodynamic, and run at higher speeds, so they would make good oval cars.

Regarding NR2003, most of the public online play is on the open oval servers, but I have the feeling that most NR2003 players prefer the mods and running on all of the road courses available for NR2003. My favorite mods are the TransAm mod and the GTP mod. It's still my opinion and many expert sim racers that NR2003's physics (including the mods) are the best. Papy games also have an excellent replay feature. There are still players willing to spend $80 (USA) and more to get a copy of the no longer published game at ebay. F1C99-02 is starting to follow suit with high prices online. I'm just glad I got these games back when they were cheap. I hope that a company like sold-out software will get the rights to start making new copies of these games to bring the prices back down. Sold-out sells GPL for between $5 and $10 USA.

Quote from WGooden :

We already have 3 single seater cars, which is perfectly fine. We don't need another similar one to be drivin around the stupid oval 24/7.

I agree... Those bloody "Oval BF1" bloody cr*p races are getting on ma' tits!!

Quote from Tweaker :

To be honest, they are right, we don't exactly need a Champ Car... besides, they aren't any different than our FO8 or BF1... we have enough single seaters.

If you want to attract US drivers, you'd need a Nascar, Dragster, and to really attract them... some very old classic muscle cars with lots of beef. That would bring in lots of interest from around here. But it not being any official licensed Nascar stuff, and the fact that what we would have would probably be a fantasy Nascar stock car, it wouldn't be all that interesting. But fun I guess.

They are doing fantasy Stock car for rfactor to. Pay mod.
So a fictional stock car isnt a bad idea at all. Even If i would still prefer ChampCar .
What you want you have 15 or so normal cars ingame and only 3 formulas. We need more formulas
I dont want to drive anything else!!!

I dont think that devs should think something like "we are adding too many cars, we need to choose".
I hope that, if possibile, they could add both a champ car (with overboost) or indycar and a nascar car.

As this game is called "live for speed", those 2 kind of motorsports should be covered.

The problem imho is only that then at least a slow speedway and a superspeedway (if we consider kyoto as a normal speedway) should be added too.

The only thing good about F1 is the pre-race hot chicks j/k.

As for Nascar, LFS could probably never duplicate that series correctly due to all of different rules and such that this game does not have. I love Nascar but I didn't purchase this game for that. I purchased it for the sheer enjoyment of racing period. Plus without real-world tracks, Nascar, Indy or Champ cars just wouldn't be the same.

IMO it takes just as much $$ and engineering a chassis for ovals as it does for road racing. Sometimes more in some cases.

So after all that I would say what's the big deal? If someone wants to build models for these different series, go ahead. If you don't want them, don't install them. Personally I probably would d/l just to have them.

But I will say this if LFS dev's did delve into stock cars, it would be HUGE because the netcode is superior to most games out there.

Quote from Hankstar :

I like chocolate ice cream with nuts. Vanilla is shallow. Tasty, I'll admit, but shallow. Having to eat the chocolate around the nuts (or crunch straight through them at an appropriate time) requires more strategy than just slurping straight through the vanilla.

Being in the industry I know more about how to eat ice cream than you, unless you are a confectioner or dairy farmer.

Lol, that has to be one of the best posts here ever.

No need for ovals with their NASCAR cars. I see no point when everyone has the same amount of power = same amount of speed when setups are gonna be just identical.

So as in real life, the only way to win, is to push someone off the track, accidentally or intentionally.

I have played a lot of nascar games, but got bored taking a left turn for 100 laps.

We need normal road cars more. How about a Toyota Hilux? how about some real sportscars? All the way up to 600hp, normal saloons too.

Quote from Islandiver2005 :

it would be HUGE because the netcode is superior to most games out there.

lol good joke. For a superior netcode you first need to remove any kind of warping out of it even the one which is in distance like LFS uses right now. It really looks bad when cars on the limit of visibility warp left right but the one around you are smooth. Ok must be some kind of intelligent net code I guess. Then there is a 22 car limit. How superior is this!
I just hope for S3 they will do some overtime to make it good. Right now its only average. The faster the cars go the more warp there is.

so, sawyer. which racing games have a netcode superior to lfs?

Nr2003?

dunno, there must be lots of them. otherwise islandivers "joke" won't be that funny ...or sawyer just is easily amused :P

rfactor
Nascar had a great netcode for its time but now its just ok. You can race with 42 warp free but collision detection isnt the best.
However I still put N2003 netcode over LFS anytime.

IDK, nr2003 is about on the same level as LFS in MP. Except for the fact 43 people can race with nr2003. But for a sim that's 3 years old it was way ahead of it's time. No one has been able to defeat it yet. rFactor is trying but IMO will still fall short.