The USA vastly overestimates its position in the world, times are changing and soon the USA will no longer be the world's most powerful nation.

This is not down to Obama, its down to the stupidly conservative views that a lot of Americans hold, an inability to adapt which will probrably lead to the USA's downfall.

You live in a country that cannot provide a basic right for all its citizens, how backward is that?

Quote from tristancliffe :

"Being American" didn't exactly do you many wonders though, did it. Now your government has to spend some money to sort out all the problems "Being American" caused...

America hasn't been truly 'American' for quite a few years. For example having a fiat currency and the Fed aren't what you'd call ' true American' systems. And it's argued with quite some validy that these 'non-American' systems are what caused the mess

The 'American' way of doing things isn't always the right way of doing things.

Sadly the UK's governments of late have been obsessed with trying to do things the American way, and now we're stuck in two wars nobody wanted as a result. (which we're going to lose).

A fiat currency? They use italian cars as cash?

I agree, I don't think we've been "American" since 1913 when the Fed came along and started printing funny money and borrowing. from 1776 to 1913 the value of the dollar was stable and increased ~13% from 1913 to 2009 it fell 92%. What happened? We came off the gold standard and the government could just print and borrow money with no backing. Now we are in it too deep and the gov is spending up to its eyeballs just to keep alfloat! The problem isn't stupidly conservative views its the idea that Americans have the 'right' to not fail like everyone else when they make stupid decisions like not taking care of themselves, their businesses, their families, etc.

Healthcare is not a right it is a good that can be bought and sold, thereby creating competition, lower prices, better services, etc. Only when the government and in some ways insurance companies got into healthcare did it start to become unattainable. Socialist healthcare cannot be as good as healthcare in a true capitalist system because when it is sub par the fed can just dump more money into a failed system! There is no incentive to provide a better product at a lower price. simple as that. Government is the problem, not the solution.

Quote from flymike91 :

I agree, I don't think we've been "American" since 1913 when the Fed came along and started printing funny money and borrowing. from 1776 to 1913 the value of the dollar was stable and increased ~13% from 1913 to 2009 it fell 92%. What happened? We came off the gold standard and the government could just print and borrow money with no backing. Now we are in it too deep and the gov is spending up to its eyeballs just to keep alfloat! The problem isn't stupidly conservative views its the idea that Americans have the 'right' to not fail like everyone else when they make stupid decisions like not taking care of themselves, their businesses, their families, etc.

Healthcare is not a right it is a good that can be bought and sold, thereby creating competition, lower prices, better services, etc. Only when the government and in some ways insurance companies got into healthcare did it start to become unattainable. Socialist healthcare cannot be as good as healthcare in a true capitalist system because when it is sub par the fed can just dump more money into a failed system! There is no incentive to provide a better product at a lower price. simple as that. Government is the problem, not the solution.

Spoken like a true Austrian (you'll know what I mean)

However this is a debate for another thread

Quote from 5haz :

The 'American' way of doing things isn't always the right way of doing things.

Sadly the UK's governments of late have been obsessed with trying to do things the American way, and now we're stuck in two wars nobody wanted as a result. (which we're going to lose).

You seem to have not understood what I was implying. The true American way hasn't existed in the states for many many many years

Quote from tristancliffe :

A fiat currency? They use italian cars as cash?

We all do! And just like Italian cars they are freakin unreliable

Quote from Intrepid :

You seem to have not understood what I was implying. The true American way hasn't existed in the states for many many many years

Yeah, and everyone talks as if thats a bad thing.

what you just said is not based on any kind of logic or history, just a general hatred of America that is in vogue in socialist/globalist circles.

Quote from flymike91 :

what you just said is not based on any kind of logic or history, just a general hatred of America that is in vogue in socialist/globalist circles.

Its quite obvious that the USA is obsesed with being 'un-American', anyone who disagrees is branded a socialist regardless of their real political views.

Infact you even proved my point with your post, you're too narrow minded to handle any different way of thinking, so you resort to calling me a socialist, a point which is not based on any logic or history.

You like to rubbish different ways of thinking that you clearly haven't bothered to learn about, this shows you to be ignorant, blindly following whatever the popular opinion is.

Do you not ever wonder why the USA is such a hated country? These things happen for a reason.

America is a beautiful country, just a shame its full of people like you, as an English person I'm quite ashamed that we helped create these people.

Quote from 5haz :

Its quite obvious that the USA is obsesed with being 'un-American', anyone who disagrees is branded a socialist regardless of their real political views.

Infact you even proved my point with your post, you're too narrow minded to handle any different way of thinking, so you resort to calling me a socialist, a point which is not based on any logic or history.

You like to rubbish different ways of thinking that you clearly haven't bothered to learn about, this shows you to be ignorant, blindly following whatever the popular opinion is.

Do you not ever wonder why the USA is such a hated country? These things happen for a reason.

America is a beautiful country, just a shame its full of people like you, as an English person I'm quite ashamed that we helped create these people.

Have you actually ever been to America? With several hours of landing in the states I learned they are politically smarter than the British, and vastly more aware of what's going on.

The America people 'hate' isn't the true America. If you 5Haz actually spent 5 minutes to read the American Constituion you will find what a wonderfully beautiful document it is.

You can't defeat an over-generalisation by making one of your own. The Americans are not politically more smart than the British, any more than they are more wrinkly or have shorter hair than the British. Though I would say that, broadly speaking, they are less aware of, or conversant with, international politics than we are. Though this seems like a generalisation, it's a direct personal observation. It's not a criticism of its people either. When I lived in the US, I found it very difficult to GET international news in US media - and I was hunting for it.

The US population definitely has a different view of the US from the view generally seen by the rest of the world. It definitely thinks it is THE land of the free, to the exclusion of all others, though in my experience it was quite evidently more oppressive, more socially unjust than any other country I've visited or lived in. And though the constitution of the US reads well, the truth is that very few of its founding tenets are actually adhered to in modern-day USA. If they were, the US would definitely be MORE like "socialist Europe" than "socialist Europe" could ever hope to be.

America can feel 'oppressive' but I found it's more about strength of character than anything. Having to be independant and sort yourself out can feel oppressive if your used to being spoon fed, like we are in the UK.

Anything that gives you reason to feel repressed is oppressive.

I think your perception of the US is definitely coloured by your own political views, which of course is reasonable. But at the same time, believing the things you do WHILE singing the praises of the (very socialist, anti-monarchic) US constitution makes less than plain sense.

Quote from Intrepid :

The America people 'hate' isn't the true America. If you 5Haz actually spent 5 minutes to read the American Constituion you will find what a wonderfully beautiful document it is.

The constitution can be as wonderful as you like, but a lot of un constitutional stuff has gone down over the years since 1788.

Quote from v1rg0 :

Feel free to elaborate on how fractional reserve banking is conservative.

Its a lot of the people, not so much the current government that are ridiculously conservative.

Quite a of the UK is conservitive. For example a large percentage of the UK don't beleive in man-made global warming, and quite a few didn't like the bank bailouts.

The problem is we have an inherently 'sociallistic' news broadcastor that doesn't represent the views of most British people. According to the BBC man made global warming is bad, low taxes are bad, and all the bankers are evil

Quote from Intrepid :

Quite a of the UK is conservitive. For example a large percentage of the UK don't beleive in man-made global warming, and quite a few didn't like the bank bailouts.

You don't have to be a climate change skeptic to be conservative and vice versa, its bad to mix science and politics like that too much.

A lot of people think that simply taking a word and putting 'ist' on the end of it is an effective way of dealing with different opinions, a lot of them seem to be American.

Quote from Intrepid :

The problem is we have an inherently 'sociallistic' news broadcastor that doesn't represent the views of most British people. According to the BBC man made global warming is bad, low taxes are bad, and all the bankers are evil

Yeah I know, I watch it every day and luckily I have the ability to not believe everything they say, I don't need you to tell me thanks.

Yawn, move on.

Quote from 5haz :

Yeah I know, I watch it every day and luckily I have the ability to not believe everything they say, I don't need you to tell me thanks.

The difference between me and you - I don't like paying to be bullshitted to as well as others who are less individualistic and easily influenced, whereas u do

As well as political bullshit, there is a lot of other perfectly grand entertainment (bar Strictly come dancing or Eastenders) on the BBC, which makes it worth the money IMO.

Sam the constitution is in no way socialist, in fact it is the exact opposite. It is the modern interpretation of the constitution that has become more socialist. I also don't agree that americans are less aware of foreign politics, they just happen to be so far to the left of the average american that they don't seem relevant to our ways and systems. The problem today is that the liberals in power have this idea that Europe is a utopia where the people answer to and rely on the government for all their needs. Those left-wing politicians are the same ones who act as though the constitution is no longer relevant and try to pass legislation like socialized healthcare which is against everything the constitution was designed to protect: individual liberty, responsibility, and power, not the government's.

last time I checked this topic wasn't about the American constitution

Quote from Electrik Kar :

That's where the 'settled science' claim really gets me. There are still so many unknown or unquantifiable relationships in climate. Climatology is actually a fairly young science, even though the basic physics of the greenhouse theory were set out a hundred years or so ago. But by procliaming that CO2 is the main driver of climate because we don't know what else it could be just sounds completely weird to me. It's a certainty based on ignorance, atleast that is the way it is popularly being presented to the public.

edit: the table is from the latest IPCC (2007) report

Exactly. It's just bad science pure and simple IMO. They're not putting any significant effort in to investigating other mechanisms, instead relying on "popularist" mechanisms, (which coincidentally there is financial benefit in :shrug, and specifically have become fixated with CO2.

It's just all too convenient and lazy to me. It makes me sceptical of motivation. Even eminent scientists are open to the human failings of ego, self-aggrandizement and the taint of financial reward.

Quote from flymike91 :

....... In 200 years france has had ~18 governments, Russia has had 6, Italy? Lol they don't even know what government they're on right now. America has had one government and it works. .......

What on earth are you talking about??

In the last 200 years France has been a Monarchy, (a Dictatorship strictly speaking under Napoleon), and a Republic; Russia has been a Monarchy, a Communist state and a Democracy and Italy has been a Monarchy, Facist Dictatorship and a Republic.

Funny how you conveniently pick the last 200 years however, pre constitution "America" was variously "owned" by other nations.


Ironic how the world turns out. The Americans see Britain as their closest allies and hold the French in low regard, despite the fact that it was the British they went to war against to gain independence and if not for the French they would never had been successful. So historically speaking it's the French the Americans should be thankful to for their freedoms and the British they should be resentful towards.