Good Evening One and All,

Ok, havent been about for some time, as you think, but like to look back here and now, and just keep an eye on things so to keep in the loop.

One thing I have noticed, is the amount of "old Skool" drivers that appear to not be enjoying LFS like it used to be. So if Scawen and Co are making it more realistic, so why are so many of us moaning, well a question never answered.

Also, this insim, ok good idea on paper and for "leagues" but for your every day racing, well as good as a chocolate teapot.

I posted a thread earlier, just showing what sort of fun we used to have in S1, way before Insim, way for Rules, way before regs, way before you must race out way, etc etc, what on earth has happened to a game, 6-7 yrs ago had everything, and now is so focused on realism, its taking the fun away from the whole concept?

If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.

I am all for realism, pit stops, fuel stops, damage, brake fade, etc etc, but being made to use a setup that suits the administrator, he is not god, he doesn't control setups "in real life" if you want to go that far, then we need an out lap to pick up rubber so our car is not under weight or under height. You cannot have without the other.

I voice this because ok major old skool me, but like to just "plug and play" when and if I can, and although LFS used to cater for us oldies, it no longer has that, I have to resort to my Xbox for a giggle.

Bring back the Old No Rules Server

Well thats it really, just liked to GMHO, so there

Happy Xmas to one and all, and please remember this....You always respect your elders HA HA HA

The only reason you "oldes" and me complain is because it's the same content over and over again, the lack of clean races are really down aswell, i still don't think the new tyre model will help that much aswell.

Fresh cars/tracks (not new track configs) will help alot because it's been almost the same stuff since i joined back in Aug 2005, but i really started to get sick of the same stuff over and over again around mid 2008, only really stayed with lfs is because all the people who i have got to know over the past years.

Been thinking of looking more into iRacing but it's goes against what i don't believe in gaming is p2p or payable content, like everything they release you have to buy which i really hate.

Anyway rank over, oh btw What i don't get is how are they making money from lfs without any new content, added Wed, July 2nd, 2008 16:20 >Patch Z..... that's the last time we got something new visual, content or physics wise so don't get your hopes up for a xmas patch this month.

Awesomelingly nice patches this year

Hey Sean, interesting post.

To be honest I find LFS moving away from being a raw sim into something that provides a lot of useless features. I realize and hope that will change with the tire physics modifications, but if you look at the number of "simple" things which could have been implemented by now compared to the number of useless shit that's been worked on (subjectively speaking of course; I concede before you begin) it's making this a limp sim.

Nuno had this right ages ago and I didn't beleive him because I wasn't privy to the inside scoop - LFS really had become pussy 4 years ago. It started as the most hardcore, realistic, no holds barred sim that was made at the time and it attracted most of the old timers here for that reason. Since then it has stagnated into the most tragic, potential filled dry orgasm of a sim ever made and it's a waste of all that time.

This allowed iRacing to limp along with a millions budget and toy around for a few years before they're about to get serious and blow everything to hell and back. Odd to see the rocket I once cheered for degenerate into a firecracker and fizzle into a few patches of a track here, a transmisson sim added more than a year earlier, and blah - who really cares what happens on a yearly scale. I used to visit here on a daily basis knowing there was a chance of some interesting shit happening, those days have long passed.

LFS will always have the niche of bang for the buck - at least for the next couple of years. After that, it's all grey and a dream may have taken on the form of a pipe by that time.

MSN me if you wish to yatter further, it's good to hear from you again


PS: On a better note, I get to take my wife to see Muse in March

Crudely, but very well put BBT.

The hype around the new tire physics is building up a lot though, I hope they'll be as good as expected.

I have big hopes for the next patch, but it will be LFS's last chance.
It needs to be a cracker, and things need to develop at a consistent pace from then on or I think it's doomed. It doesn't need to be developed fast, just faster than the last 2 so years.

Having said that, I disagree with the OP's point that the move towards realism is it's downfall. If anything, realism will be it's saviour.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

PS: On a better note, I get to take my wife to see Muse in March

I might be seeing them myself around that time, Silvsersun Pickups are playing support - I saw them recently supporting Placebo and they are absolutely phenomenal. You havn't lived until you've heard Lazy Eye played live. Muse to me is ok and all sounds the same - but the misses likes them, so I might be going just for the support

Quote :

One thing I have noticed, is the amount of "old Skool" drivers that appear to not be enjoying LFS like it used to be

I don't think anything has really changed. The old skool of drivers is still around and still being social with each other but not really racing, but this is what they always did.

Personally I was never very good at LFS, I linger around the forums and go to the meets and when I get a chance I do some coding for my next LFS project. I always did this, only I used to have my priorities in life mixed up and coded way more than I should have, but nothing changed.

I see the old crowd still loitering around the forum, still posting and still taking part. They check the forums less frequently, but they're still there and waiting for something new and fresh. They'll come along when there's some new content, play it a while, then disapear again when they're bored again.

LFS is like a life membership, once you have a licence you are always welcome back - and us oldies will keep on coming back for as long as new patches and content keep us coming back.

It's not up to LFS to stay fresh: It can't hope to do that without massively increasing the number of staff it employs; what LFS needs to do is never die, and for as long as new stuff does come the old players will return.

It's true we've had a very long dry spell, the longest that I personally have known since I joined (around patch P/Q time I believe), but that does not meen the sim has gone off course, it just meens that i'm off doing other things for a bit.

As for my own project things would move a lot faster if I become single again - but i'd like for that not to happen for a bit

You (Fordman) have posted a similar thread a while back. I have to ask: what's stopping you from setting up a server the way you want for all the people you believe miss the "good old days"? I don't agree that the aim for realism has taken the fun out of LFS and also I think there's plenty of "plug n play" servers around. You make it sound as if all servers now have some fancy insim app running that you don't enjoy or whatever, but that's not the case. You can still just hop on any of the majority of the servers and drive. Sounds to me like you're just being melancholic for the sake of it; it's not the game that has changed in such a way that you don't enjoy it anymore, it's you who's changed.

Just my two cents.

Well put Becky. Couldn't really say it fairer than that.

Although I do see both sides of the camp. But my take on it is that I've paid for what i've got already. And by god has it given back. You don't have a car manufacturer coming back and constantly bolting extra bits on to your pride and joy just because they've had a breakthrough in the workshop, no, they wait and bolt it onto the next model so it's shinier and newer and faster and sexier than the previous model so you'll come back and spend the money all over again on what is essentially an identical car.

From a commercial viewpoint, we've payed, we play. We don't subscribe, there is no after market agreement that Scavier will constantly drip feed updates and improvements. LFS is very much a WIP, always has been and will be for a while yet. We're not dealing with a large multi-national rehashing old code and bolting on pretty effects, we're talking a father, a husband, a regular bloke trying to pay the bills with as many projects as he can. He's just some dude with a dream that I subscribe too. And when his dream is ready, and not a moment before, he will release it to the world.

And 'lo, for they will bow down and castrate themselves at his feet.
And they will call him, Scavier. The saviour of on-line sim racing. Ahmen.






I think I've overdosed on coffee this morning.

Quote from obsolum :

snip

^^ agree with the above.

TBH the story on a whole is a load of bollocks. Insim hasn't ruinmed anything since it doesn't do anything. Plus, this is if you actually bother to read instructions which 90% of people don't do, there are very simple welcome messages which tell you how to turn the thing off or at least out of sight.

Oldschool drivers are either truly bored with lfs after no development during the past lifetime, OR they weren't decent racers to begin with and are now fed up with the decent driving standards normal people expect from a racetrack and do not like the fact that they can't ram everyone out of their way.

On a more serious note (for a change), something has gone wrong with the mentality. Racing is more biased on the league side while pickup doesn't exist anymore. At least I couldn't care a toss about the cruise servers which are always on top of the connections list and the occupied racing servers (if you can refer to them in the plural form) are of the same car/track combo week after week, and the car choices aren't exactly attractive.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

LFS started as the most hardcore, realistic, no holds barred sim that was made at the time.

Actually the physics of S1 was quite flawed, but the slowness of most of the cars back then masked the issues, except for the LX6. GPL and NR2003 had better physics than S1. I had the impression that early versions of LFS had little input from the real world, based on things like a vicous rear end differential, something I don't think was ever done with any real car (although some 4WD vehicles use viscous coupling between the front and rear driveshafts). The GTR like all or nothing traction of the tire physics was another issues, but all of these issues were mostly fixed back with S2 version V.

As far as the old timers not playing LFS as much, it's because they are old timers. Some of us have been playing racing games for over a decade now, and the newness factor is gone, we're aging, and our interests change.

Quote from Fordman :

Snip...

Ahhh, the annual "what happened to all the good ol drivers from days of yore" post from Fordie, is it that time of year already

Its the same reason you've posted before mate.

LFS was a little niche years ago, and as such, the community feeling was closer knit.

As more and more people have gotten on board, the community has diluted.

Bottomline, it will never get back to how it was "when all this was just fields", thats progress for you.

I haven't played LFS in ages, and have no desire to do so.

There are hundreds of servers running with no insim apps at all. The vast majority of them are empty. The reason I race at places like Race Center are because the insim apps they run tend to filter out people who can't or won't race cleanly.

You could have an admin or team of admins online 24/7 kicking people for driving like idiots, but that's a huge time commitment.

The only thing LFS needs: the patch to come out.

Quote from rc10racer :

The only reason you "oldes" and me complain is because it's the same content over and over again, the lack of clean races are really down aswell, i still don't think the new tyre model will help that much aswell.

Fresh cars/tracks (not new track configs) will help alot because it's been almost the same stuff since i joined back in Aug 2005, but i really started to get sick of the same stuff over and over again around mid 2008, only really stayed with lfs is because all the people who i have got to know over the past years.

Been thinking of looking more into iRacing but it's goes against what i don't believe in gaming is p2p or payable content, like everything they release you have to buy which i really hate.

Anyway rank over, oh btw What i don't get is how are they making money from lfs without any new content, added Wed, July 2nd, 2008 16:20 >Patch Z..... that's the last time we got something new visual, content or physics wise so don't get your hopes up for a xmas patch this month.

Quote :

LFS really had become pussy 4 years ago. It started as the most hardcore, realistic, no holds barred sim that was made at the time and it attracted most of the old timers here for that reason.

This.

And on top of that; the most obvious stuff not being changed. With all due respect, but I don't give a damn about dashboard lights. Fix the damage model for example, thàt is important. Not how realistic one or another dashboard light looks*.

However, I disagree about the insim part with you Fordie. I'd even say it improved general racing or league racing. After all, we're here for a racesim.

* This is just one comparison example, many other can be found, it all comes down to: work on the game content, not the rice graphics.

Quote from Danke :

You could have an admin or team of admins online 24/7 kicking people for driving like idiots, but that's a huge time commitment.

We managed near to that earlier this year on the NDR Public Racing Server... At least one admin was present for most of the day, and any wreckers would be dealt with a 999 ban, with warnings/kicks to people driving like prats.

This combined with shouting at people to be careful, brake in time, and give room at Turn 1 worked actually quite well. Several times we got through T1 completely incident free.

But then we all decided to go and get a life

Quote from JO53PHS :

We managed near to that earlier this year on the NDR Public Racing Server... At least one admin was present for most of the day, and any wreckers would be dealt with a 999 ban, with warnings/kicks to people driving like prats.

This combined with shouting at people to be careful, brake in time, and give room at Turn 1 worked actually quite well. Several times we got through T1 completely incident free.

But then we all decided to go and get a life

... and we appreciate your efforts! That was a great place to race. Certainly nobody can begrudge you getting a life and going outside once in a while.

You can't expect people to admin live forever for free. So we're left with automated idiot filters, i.e. insim apps. In my experience, LFS is the only sim where there's any kind of pickup racing happening. Iracing is apparently all pickup racing, and that's because their entire system is an automated idiot filter.

Maybe the need for these systems now is a statement on the player community, but there's not much anyone can do to change that.

for me is the lack of new content which drives me down from being in LFS in a daily basis as I used to to in "the old times".

Up to the begining of S2 we used to get decent new content in a decent timeframe and kept everyone enthusiatic about the sim, but now not really the case ...a new car was announced with release date (if I remember correctly december 2008?) and then for almost two year we got only patches nothing really substancial to play with ...this is a game at the end of the day and must be fun... for me part of the fun was the regular new content.

There is probably a trillion reasons for the lack of frequent new development, and might all be right, but my feeling is the above ...my opinion

I miss ramming other drivers off the track as well , trying a new sim ATM where I can ram with impunity.

Hows it going Sidi you old wrecker

Quote from Fordman :

If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.

You realize that most of us are here because we can't afford to do that? This is a SIM after all, and is meant to be as real as possible. If you don't want realism go play NFS online.

Quote from JohnPenn :

I miss ramming other drivers off the track as well , trying a new sim ATM where I can ram with impunity.

Ahh yes, the good old times of the Clean Rammers Club. How I miss the times where everyone followed the proper ramming regulations

Quote from Fordman :

Also, this insim, ok good idea on paper and for "leagues" but for your every day racing, well as good as a chocolate teapot.

Afaik, nobody is forced to use insim.

Quote from Fordman :

I posted a thread earlier, just showing what sort of fun we used to have in S1, way before Insim, way for Rules, way before regs, way before you must race out way, etc etc, what on earth has happened to a game, 6-7 yrs ago had everything, and now is so focused on realism, its taking the fun away from the whole concept?

Wait, what? Sure, S1 was fun, but to me, it was simply too different to compare. If you're seeking the kind of game that we had back then, then maybe you're just not that much into what LFS plans to be about. You cannot really arrive here and say: "well, screw this whole realism thing, let's make this thing entertaining instead!". Do you develop for NFS?

Quote from Fordman :

If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, [...]

Not everybody can afford to do this for real.

Quote from Fordman :

[...] or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.

Are you suggesting that any victory in LFS is currently void and nul as the game is not complete? Or even further, that any sentiment of accomplishment whatsoever (define accolade in the context) is flawed? As long as you have something to compare yourself to, and that you can compete against those things (or persons) in a fair context, then I see no reason why you couldn't get this accolade.

Quote from Fordman :

I am all for realism, pit stops, fuel stops, damage, brake fade, etc etc, but being made to use a setup that suits the administrator, he is not god, he doesn't control setups "in real life" if you want to go that far, then we need an out lap to pick up rubber so our car is not under weight or under height. You cannot have without the other.

Yes, but not everything is programmed at the same time, hence why the game is in development. Exercise some common sense: we know that the goal of LFS is to be a simulation... to be realistic. Do you think Scavier really don't care about, for instance, out laps and such? They probably do, but as Scawen stated himself a lot of times, he works at his pace, and has his priorities. If, when the game is complete, it still isn't realistic enough, then you may have a point.

Quote from Fordman :

I voice this because ok major old skool me, but like to just "plug and play" when and if I can, and although LFS used to cater for us oldies, it no longer has that, I have to resort to my Xbox for a giggle.

Bring back the Old No Rules Server

This specific problem, is, to me, concerning much more the players themselves than the game. The lack of plug and play servers to race on (say, jump in, and do some 5 laps no pressure race with 30 people online) is not due to what the game is, but rather to the fact that such servers have become pretty rare. The game doesn't make it impossible for such servers to exist.

Quote from Fordman :

One thing I have noticed, is the amount of "old Skool" drivers that appear to not be enjoying LFS like it used to be. So if Scawen and Co are making it more realistic, so why are so many of us moaning, well a question never answered.

I didn't realize the number of people complaining about realism was in any way appreciable.

Quote from Fordman :

Also, this insim, ok good idea on paper and for "leagues" but for your every day racing, well as good as a chocolate teapot.

I'm going to guess that you don't really understand the scope of things you can accomplish with InSim. Not really surprising considering you think there are so many people "moaning" about realism. What I mean to say is you're completely out of touch.

Quote from Fordman :

I posted a thread earlier, just showing what sort of fun we used to have in S1, way before Insim, way for Rules, way before regs, way before you must race out way, etc etc, what on earth has happened to a game, 6-7 yrs ago had everything, and now is so focused on realism, its taking the fun away from the whole concept?

It's not taking away fun. You're a crusty old fart. You want Project Gotham and the dev team are making a racing simulator.

Quote from Fordman :

If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.

I was going to accuse you of being delusional earlier, but I decided to save it for this snippet. You're delusional.

Quote from Fordman :

I am all for realism,

No you're not, you implied that you're party to the complaining about the dev team improving realism and you went on to whine about the days of yore before rules, regulations, and courteous driving.

Quote from Fordman :

pit stops, fuel stops, damage, brake fade, etc etc, but being made to use a setup that suits the administrator, he is not god, he doesn't control setups "in real life"

First, the administrator is god, if you're running on his server, you're running by his rules. If you don't like it, that's too bad. As for controlling setups, the administrator is analogous to the real-life steward... he checks to make sure your car doesn't contravene the regulations. In this particular case, your daily driver isn't allowed to have any race-bred modifications.

Quote from Fordman :

if you want to go that far, then we need an out lap to pick up rubber so our car is not under weight or under height. You cannot have without the other.

This is totally incoherent. I have no idea what you're trying to say. I'll just add that limited setups would prevent you from going underweight or too low anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Quote from Fordman :

I voice this because ok major old skool me, but like to just "plug and play" when and if I can, and although LFS used to cater for us oldies, it no longer has that, I have to resort to my Xbox for a giggle.

"I have to resort to my Xbox." You're not resorting to your XBox, it just happens to be the best thing for you.

Quote from Fordman :

Bring back the Old No Rules Server

Run your own server.

Quote from Fordman :

Well thats it really, just liked to GMHO, so there

Happy Xmas to one and all, and please remember this....You always respect your elders HA HA HA

Feel free to stop drunk posting.

Honestly I think what is missing is some "Tournament" servers, where in one night we could drive a car type (TBO, GTR, SS, etc.) through 6 or 7 tracks in 4 laps races with the grid set by championship position.

The possibility to have every night a small championship would be very appealing to everybody: noobs and old-timers, addicted and casual, all that thing.

Unfortunatly, there are nowadays more DEMO servers than S1/S2 servers and the ones that exists are always looping the same car and track. You do 2 or 3 races and get bored, but there are no alternatives...

Maybe the server hosts could do something against this boredom with those small tournaments/championships at "arcade style".

It was a long and somewhat rambling post, but I think I get some of where he's coming from. Looking back at a less busy time is something that we all do, and be thankful you can because some people will never know any different to the now!

Motor City Online was the same way in beta. Racing was awesome, the community was brilliant, games were fun and everyone helped where they could. Then beta ended, the game went gold and more people piled in. And of course the whole community changed. Spammers were in, griefers and glitchers were in, a lot of it really went to pot. The game itself hadn't changed that much, but the atmosphere surrounding it had and that made it considerably less fun.

Times don't stop changing, that's the way of the world. People move on, things are developed, stuff gets patched. Sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't. If you don't, there's always an alternative out there.
I agree that sometimes drop-in servers go a little over the top with the InSim. Not everyone wants harassed with rules and points systems and stuff if you only want to play for a short time. Then again, nobody wants to end up getting hassled by wreckers if they happen to join the wrong server at the wrong time.

Welcome to the internet. Choice is near-endless but so is the supply of morons. If you're not enjoying it, the time has come to find something else.

I've not raced properly in months, but not because I don't want to - because I don't have a working wheel. I don't know if that makes me the right person to make this comment or so totally out of touch that it's just not funny. In fact, I've forgotten the point I was trying to make in the first place. Time to sign off.