My reason for only playing LFS one night in 3 months is not to do with the game. It's just that I have achieved what I wanted to achieve in sim racing and I no longer gain the satisfaction from it that I used to.

I think this is down to my experiences in sprint racing in a rather fast mk 2 golf and also some seat time in a 125cc 2-stroke 6-geared kart that has 40hp and weighs only 80kgs - now that really is a buzz!

Another reason is the way graphics have moved on. Even the old favourite GT Legends knocks spots off LFS graphics wise. And the next Gran Turismo is likely to look very impressive.

I really need to see a big jump forward in LFS graphics before I come back to the game more often.

Having said all that, for a racer that is just starting to play LFS there is a hell of a lot that can be learned in terms of racecraft and the process of setup improvement and testing. This knowledge really does transfer into the real world if said individual ever has the chance to compete in real life racing.

So in summary, LFS is still a fantastic learning tool and a great deal of fun for at least a year or two.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

So in summary, LFS is still a fantastic learning tool and a great deal of fun for at least a year or two.

Very true, I do believe that LFS does have a certain "shelf life" with people.

Ahhh Fordie, I just love to read your rants once a year How you doin? Merry X-Mas to you all and may the Scirocco be with you

Quote from obsolum :

You (Fordman) have posted a similar thread a while back. I have to ask: what's stopping you from setting up a server the way you want for all the people you believe miss the "good old days"? I don't agree that the aim for realism has taken the fun out of LFS and also I think there's plenty of "plug n play" servers around. You make it sound as if all servers now have some fancy insim app running that you don't enjoy or whatever, but that's not the case. You can still just hop on any of the majority of the servers and drive. Sounds to me like you're just being melancholic for the sake of it; it's not the game that has changed in such a way that you don't enjoy it anymore, it's you who's changed.

Just my two cents.

Interesting post there. Maybe I have posted the "same" a while back, but maybe just to reiterate on what LFS "had" set out to be, and not what it "has" become. Also interesting use of word there "melancholic", used mostly in a physocology enviroment, and I take it your a physcologist of some degree ( something I am acutally studying at the moment, got bored of IT support so changing to child and human psychology. I know major change but started reading and really interested me ).

No I am not depressed or mentally unstable, as your insinuating, just taking the oppotunity to express one's opinion of how I feel something has changed.

Change is good, doesn't suit all, and suits others, but to be characterized as an unstable person is not one's choosen fortey.

Anyway enough of that, its just a matter of fact. LFS "used" to be pick up and drop as and when see fit and you all, as in a collective, all fitted in, no matter what car, track, combo, what ever we did, it worked. Now, a new Gen is on board, new rules, new regs new guidelines to follow, taking away the "fun" element from the sim racer. Now somebody else is making the choice's for us, we no longer or are being restricted through choice? Now do you see where I am going.

The strive for perfection has indeed for some for most of us has taking the FUN element out of almost realism in a simulated world. We all strive for perfect, that perfect laptime, that perfect corner, that perfect overtaking move, but we enjoyed doing it. I have the greatest pleasure in watching this game grow, improve, get better publicity and so much it is deserved, but along came with it, like most others, the "fun" removed.

I know, start a server, create your own, fine:

A > Give me the time of day to do this
B> Give me the money for a super fast server
C> Give me the broadband speed of T1 connections for pennies

List goes on and on.

Times change, so do people as in I have. I do check once in a while, just jump on one server, then another, and hope around like mad, just looking, and its all "rules rules rules" there is no freedom anymore.

I have "sped" read your comments, and well some are yay and some are nay, which is what I expected. The usual pop up and some of you never heard of "no offence intended" but unless you was there from day dot, I honestly don't think you don't have a comparison to compare to

But hay what do I know, I am an old man with to much time on my hands, reading books and studying on how the brain works and sometimes, just sometimes was nice to have a release, nothing to brain taxing, and if somebody mentions NFS again as an altenative to LFS

But anyway, its the Holiday Season, so Happy Christmas, hope you all get the Scirocco you are waiting for and have fun filled break.

Fordie

PS - Joe, Already have a Scirocco, so no need for it to be with me, it already is

PPS - Ok OK it's the wife's car, but hay, get to drive it...........when I have been a good boy

Quote from rc10racer :

Been thinking of looking more into iRacing but it's goes against what i don't believe in gaming is p2p or payable content, like everything they release you have to buy which i really hate.

But why would you have to buy everything they release? There are 17 cars and 38 tracks. Surely dont need all of them. In a few years there will be 50+cars and over 100 tracks... not much point in owning everything iRacing releases.

LFS was awesome 8 years ago (you read that right, i've been around this sim for that long)... and hit its peak of content\features around 2006-07.

Ever since then, not only did the lack of good quality noticeably better patches slow down drastically, but also the sim started growing bigger then the original LFS crowd could handle ie: more and more kids started playing, which leads to more wreckers (insert drifters here too) and the whole core of what made the LFS community fun started diluting with the raw sewage that is the common folk which is driven by the main stream mindless media\fads.

Since then, Scawen has been fighting an uphill battle, and loosing. Theres some admiration there for him, he's stuck it out this far, but i believe that this has become the nail that will seal the coffin. (has sealed the coffin in my situation, as much as i loved LFS i doubt i'll ever come back). He really should have expanded his team, at least have added one programmer/artist to the mix, it would be cutting development time right now by almost 1\2, which would have kept a lot of people a lot happier and involved.

Anyways, its not all his wrong doing... LFS just ended up attracting a different crowd then what us the original core community where. So some of us migrated, moved on, left LFS to those who dont know where its come from and all its accomplished.

Quote from RMachucaA :

more and more kids started playing, which leads to more wreckers (insert drifters here too) and the whole core of what made the LFS community fun started diluting with the raw sewage that is the common folk which is driven by the main stream mindless media\fads.


Anyways, its not all his wrong doing... LFS just ended up attracting a different crowd then what us the original core community where. So some of us migrated, moved on, left LFS to those who dont know where its come from and all its accomplished.

Fail to see your point really... personally i like LFS for what it came from, and downloading the old versions like demo and s1 should be mandatory before you bash to much on the delevopers(this counts for those new users who crys about it).

So what if they had a peak around 06-07??? i noticed it aswell since i remember upgrading all the time at that point. But i dont really recall there being any changes as significant as now... sure the grip level was changed around that time but i still believe its undergoing more changes now that at that point...

They are also working on s3 contetn aswell at the moment, so i doubt they are slacking.

You also mention that more people has led to LFS sucking... its a lame excuse IMO, LFS only becomes as good as you make it and if you decide that it sucks because of drifters and more players then its your fault and not the devs.

Like said just get together and host a server or something?? and dont give me the broadband excuse cause its lame... ive played on severs my teammates hosted with 2-8mbit and we could be quite alot of people before it started to affect the gameplay.

Quote :

Fordman
The usual pop up and some of you never heard of "no offence intended" but unless you was there from day dot, I honestly don't think you don't have a comparison to compare to

The people currently playing LFS now are having a different experience to you though, so you can't speak for the enjoyment of these new people- I dare say they wouldn't be playing unless they were enjoying themselves. It's sad that some of the olides aren't getting out of LFS what they used to but you can't really expect time to stand still and community values to stay constant, especially if you and your friends have already for the most part abandoned the game. LFS has changed, the community has changed, but people are still having fun so I don't really see a problem. You could always try downloading an eariler version and rallying your mates to join a server, and live out the old days of glory. It's certainly possible to do that- but would you really want to?

I think with a bigger community you do lose something, the frequency of racing against your friends mostly. I can't judge what the product is like now because I haven't used it for ages (I probably would, were it not for a faulty accelerator pedal that I have no inclination to repair/replace).

It does seem like little progress has been made since 2006-ish. I'm sure lots of important things have happened but few of them have had any noticeable impact on the racing experience, so the sim feels like it isn't moving forward. And public servers are mostly given over to novelty activities rather than racing, which is a shame.

I suppose when you've got a small development team you've always got the problem of personal lives interrupting progress. It does seem to me that LFS has run out of steam a little bit.

Quote from Fordman :

Times change, so do people [...]

You recognize that, but you still feel the need to rant about it? Either you go with the times or you go away... I'm not saying all is good - I certainly am unsatisfied with some things here and/or see the potential and need for improvement - but desperately clinging on to "old times" never worked, and never will...

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It does seem to me that LFS has run out of steam a little bit.

Me too. What do we really have that we didn't have 2 or 3 years ago? I guess nothing more than a few "promises" ("promises" because they won't even commit to making a real promise), so let's call them hopes and possibilities. Nobody has an infinite amount of patience for the same old stuff, and to an extent I think the devs have dropped the ball there. But then whilst keeping more of the original old community (who for a farily lengthy time were dedicated to LFS, big time) racing regularly would make LFS a far better online environment for everyone, would it sell many more licenses?

In the end I always arrive at the conclusion that they must be selling enough licenses, so they're really not all that bothered.

I think it's unfair to say that no progress is being made simply because not one of us knows what sort of code Scawen is looking at and exactly how big the changes are to simply modify some of the stuff that needs altering from patch to patch.

What you actually mean is there's nothing new from a user's point of view, which is pretty much the case. That doesn't mean there's not a million and one changes regarding the underlying code that most of us never see.

And sure, if you started by playing 24/7 then obviously you're going to get bored quicker than someone who only does a handful of races a week. You get through all of the content way quicker and you start to wish for something more. But as has been said before - LFS is not the only thing your computer is allowed to run. You're free to leave and come back as it suits you.

A graphics engine update would only get people onside for so long - until they realised that underneath the new shiny exterior it's still exactly the same game. But I don't know how big a programming job that is. I don't expect it's small.
And right now we know that Scawen is working on a new tyre model and the new car. How much work is involved in either of those? I've never tried to write tyre physics from scratch so I don't know. I expect quite a lot again.

But since you're not continuously paying, you can't really complain that much. If you'd subscribed and were churning money away with no noticable returns then fair enough. But I bet you've had more LFS hours from your £24 than most other racing sims for double the price.

Sure, you can say that LFS has progressed greatly, just like you can say MG has come on leaps and bounds in the UK in the last couple of years, maybe they'll build and sell a car here in the next 5 years.

I don't care about coding and such, what matters to me is what I have here on the hdd. So you can say, well it takes time, and in the end it doesn't matter if it has taken so long for anything to really change because it's uber-complex and time consuming, or because they've been on holiday for the last 3 years.

Please don't anyone play the "you can play other games" line. No kidding, that isn't the discussion point. This is about the consequences of what is (whichever way you slice it) a painfully long development cycle.

We all also know that the only thing we can complain about is the title of the software as "alpha" because in this instance we know it to mean unfinished and incomplete, but they could get rid of that and shut up shop tomorrow and nobody could complain. Again, that is clearly not what this is ever about. Most people in these threads have never complained, and are not complaining now, just stating what they believe to be happening, and how disappointing it is considering the way things started out.

Admittedly I've only been around for the last couple of years. I tried LFS before that but never really took it seriously because I didn't have a wheel.

So if they could get rid of the "alpha" tag (and since all online games are works in progress they might as well) would you guys stop complaining? No, you'd still want more stuff to be added and you'd still complain when a feature was changed. There's no way Scawen can win here.

In fact, think of it this way. Imagine it wasn't available to the public. The guys had been working on it with only a selection of testers and it was made public right now. You'd be more or less happy because you wouldn't have had time to want more from it yet.
The same can be said with any patchable game. I played Everquest for 6 years (which I paid for) and they released patches and expansions every so often (which I also paid for). But if a year went by without any new content, did we complain? No. Because you're choosing to play what the programmers give you.

What exactly do you expect to accomplish by coming on here and saying you're not happy? There's two choices - deal with it or do something else. Your contract was over the second you handed over your money. There was never any guarantee of future development when you signed up so you have nothing in your favour. All you do is upset the developers who - as far as you know - are trying as hard as they can to get the new content rolled out.

Quote from Dajmin :

Imagine it wasn't available to the public. The guys had been working on it with only a selection of testers and it was made public right now. You'd be more or less happy because you wouldn't have had time to want more from it yet.

I don't know what I'd think. I'd probably think it looked a bit dated and the physics weren't hugely special. They used to be, but I don't think they are any more.

Quote from Dajmin :

What exactly do you expect to accomplish by coming on here and saying you're not happy? There's two choices - deal with it or do something else. Your contract was over the second you handed over your money. There was never any guarantee of future development when you signed up so you have nothing in your favour. All you do is upset the developers who - as far as you know - are trying as hard as they can to get the new content rolled out.

Yes, people do complain about the lack of new stuff, but I don't see that here really. It's a topic of discussion, and this being a forum, and people having opinions on the topic, it seems right to write them here rather than anywhere else.

Trust me, noone who has been here for more than one month expects to achieve a single measly thing from writing here, other than to discuss the topic. I doubt they (SCAVIER) read, much less care about what is written in these pages.

Scawen clearly isn't out to "win" the support of the community, or at least will not go to any lengths to please it. Before the Scirocco was "announced" I half expected them to just delete the Alpha tag and say a blunt farewell. People might be upset but why would they suddenly start caring about that then?

Remember that anyone who is posting in these forums, regardless of what they are actually writing, is basically only here because of an affection for LFS, so don't go labelling people as antagonistic chronic whingers.

Maybe they are trying as hard as possible to get new content to us, the time scale of releases suggests otherwise, but I'm open to an optimistic outlook still. What we really need is for S2 license sales to halt abruptly, that would light a fire under their......bah nevermind

You reckon there's still enough S2 licenses getting sold to cover their bills and stuff? I wouldn't count on it, otherwise we'd be seeing a lot more active users on the list.

LFS is clearly a labour of love, not an early retirement plan

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I don't know what I'd think. I'd probably think it looked a bit dated and the physics weren't hugely special. They used to be, but I don't think they are any more.

So the physics have gotten worse?

Sure, the competition is closer (maybe even surpassed it, but its arguable), but LFS still has a very, very good physics system.

I think people outgrow LFS faster than it can itself grow, there just isn't enough "progress" to keep people locked in for ever.

Quote from Fordman :

Also interesting use of word there "melancholic", used mostly in a physocology enviroment, and I take it your a physcologist of some degree (...)

I'm not a native English speaker but to me being melancholic means wistfully reminiscing (sp?) the "good old times" with a feeling of sadness because they're gone. It has nothing to do with psychology and I am not at all a psychologist.

Quote from Fordman :

No I am not depressed or mentally unstable, as your insinuating, just taking the oppotunity to express one's opinion of how I feel something has changed.

I didn't mean to insinuate you were depressed or mentally unstable, you just chose to interpret it that way, apparently.

Quote from Fordman :

Anyway enough of that, its just a matter of fact. LFS "used" to be pick up and drop as and when see fit and you all, as in a collective, all fitted in, no matter what car, track, combo, what ever we did, it worked. Now, a new Gen is on board, new rules, new regs new guidelines to follow, taking away the "fun" element from the sim racer. Now somebody else is making the choice's for us, we no longer or are being restricted through choice? Now do you see where I am going.

No, I'm afraid I don't really see where you're going. What do you mean with "new rules, new regs, new guidelines" etc etc? The general rules of racing conduct haven't really changed. So unless you used to get together on a server and ram the shit out of each other then racing is exactly the same as it used to be. I really don't know what you're talking about when you refer to those things. You join a server and race, preferably abiding by the general racing etiquette. Yes, a lot of servers now have some sort of welcoming screen where the rules are laid out for you and you're required to click a "Yes" button, but that really is more of a gimmick than anything else as like I said, if you're familiar with general racing rules and etiquette there's usually noting in those pop up screens that you don't already know.

And I have absolutely no clue what you mean by "someone else is making the choices for us". Care to explain? 'Cause really... I couldn't say what you mean by that to save my life. You choose which server you want to race on, which setup you want to you use...

Quote from Fordman :

The strive for perfection has indeed for some for most of us has taking the FUN element out of almost realism in a simulated world. We all strive for perfect, that perfect laptime, that perfect corner, that perfect overtaking move, but we enjoyed doing it.

That's not true for everyone. Yes there are people doing hundreds and hundreds of laps trying to shave that split second off their lap, but there are just as many people just racing for the thrill of racing, whether they're fast or slow it makes no difference, it's the joy of going through a corner side by side with another driver and battling it out bumper to bumper for laps on end. Personally, that's what racing is about, for me. To each his own.

Quote from Fordman :

I know, start a server, create your own, fine:

A > Give me the time of day to do this
B> Give me the money for a super fast server
C> Give me the broadband speed of T1 connections for pennies

Really all you need to setup a server is a couple of £ to rent one, really not that much. You choose a car and track to be on and you're set to go. You can make it as advanced as you want with insim apps and whatnot, but you don't have to if you don't want to. It's really not that much work.

I still don't know what it is you're looking for in a server or a race. I'm curious to know. Generally you play this game to race against other people online, right? There's still plenty of places to do that, so... I understand if you're just bored of the game itself, the same way many of us are. But to say that it has changed in such a way that you can't enjoy it anymore... I don't get that. Sure, the community has changed, which is inevitable with pretty much any online game, but there's still good places to race.

I'm going to open a can of worms here, but LFS really needs to open to the modders community, I don't care about new crappy content as far as there is something new, I'm sick of having more than 1,600 laps in KY3 and if a bad port of Monaco or Silverstone is available I would happily go and race there, we've got plenty of cars and setup options but LFS lacks track diversity, that's all, no new physics will bring new light to this simulator, I will certainly like the challenge to be fast on the next physics patch, but that will last how long, a month, for two years of development? I could rant for a long time, but in the end I won't change anything, hopefully LFS someday but if that doesn't happen soon this community will starve of members.

We all would like to see more content, but it really makes no sense as it still being developed.

Say you spend 3 months making the Peugeot 908 (omg!), just to find out Scavier releases a new patch with airbags, klingon language and a new UF1 badge, which effectively renders your shiny peugeot incompatible.

You'd need to develop along with LFS, and honestly, I dont believe many people would do, at least properly.

For a game that was originally released in 2003, or whatever, the very fact that we are all still here is a damned fine achievement in itself I think.

I really can't think of many, or even any, games of that age that have the following that LFS does at present.

From my own experience with LFS, when I first tried it in the beginning of 2007 I was dumbfounded with it and couldn't believe how good the online racing was. Now nearly 3 years down the line I rarely even play it anymore as I've moved on to other things. No doubt i'll be bored with them in another couple of years and move on to something else. I guess that's just the way it goes.

The fact that there are people here that have been around since 2003 is something for LFS team and the community as a whole to be proud of.

Oh and no doubt I'll get crucified for mentioning CTRA, but I do believe a system similar to CTRA would make a huge difference, if it was in-built into LFS by the developers. It would take something like that to get me back interested in LFS.

Its strange how this type of post comes up over and over again, its as if people think it will make a difference. Face facts, it will not change a thing. The speed of development is painfully slow and chasing the devs will do nothing to speed it up, but its still the the best game for £ per hour i have ever purchased.

I have run servers (CD) for several years and slowly watch players stop racing, yet the number of players in total stay about the same. Demo players still out numbers Licensed players, and number of servers out number demo and licensed players added together.

Even on this forum many of the active posters never use LFS yet still insist to have thier say.

We all want the old days back, with full grids and great racing, in fact i would like to be 40 years younger but it just "aint gonna happen"

Due to getting bored of waiting i recently purchased v1.1 of nKpro for 19e and its latest physics are better (imo) than LFS but there are 12 servers and the most i have seen on them at one time so far is 7 players, normally its 1.

I have done a few races on nKpro and everyone i have met so far have been LFS players and all they talk about is lack of development on LFS

As to LFS, strange how people dont use it, but would miss it if it was no longer there.

I think the last real update was Dec 2007, it always makes the highest number of forum visitors jump, the patches since have added next to nothing.

One thing is for sure if the devs dont get some NEW CONTENT soon LFS may well be doomed.

Quote from sinbad :

Me too. What do we really have that we didn't have 2 or 3 years ago? I guess nothing more than a few "promises" ("promises" because they won't even commit to making a real promise), so let's call them hopes and possibilities. Nobody has an infinite amount of patience for the same old stuff, and to an extent I think the devs have dropped the ball there. But then whilst keeping more of the original old community (who for a farily lengthy time were dedicated to LFS, big time) racing regularly would make LFS a far better online environment for everyone, would it sell many more licenses?

In the end I always arrive at the conclusion that they must be selling enough licenses, so they're really not all that bothered.

Can I point out something. Comparing your statistics to mine you've done 18 625 more km than me while being around an extra 4 years, meaning I would catch you up in less than a few months.

Now my point is that you (and Kev) can not possibly, by any means, have gone through all the content there is in Live for Speed since I have still got numerous car/track combos I have never tried.

But hey, I'm sure you as someone who doesn't play the game at all have a point in the dev team merely sitting on their arses

Quote from hyntty :

Now my point is that you (and Kev) can not possibly, by any means, have gone through all the content there is in Live for Speed since I have still got numerous car/track combos I have never tried.

If there are combos I haven't raced online it's because there was nowhere to do it or nobody to do it with, or it's a stupid combo like BF1/BL2.

If there were busy pick-up servers running interesting content I'd probably still be playing LFS, but I'm not content to drive GTRs around Aston National for my entire ****ing life like most people are.

The only place I could get a decent race in the last couple of years was dMr, and often by the time I'd finished work and got online they were winding up for the night (Doorman's usually tucked up in bed by 10pm!)