i'm almost 100% sure that cars driving with ks have something like ESP. Check out the best hotlap on BL with XRT car. How is it possible to drive with keybord faster then with wheel?? Maybe i'll replace a wheel in my real car with 4 keys?
I made 1.24.24 on BL (XRT) and on the last turn left I could observe ONLY "KS people" driving faster then me. It's obvious that software is correcting them.
So, my idea is to make driving with KS and mouse harder.

ps. sorry for my english (i couldn't write it in java or c++

Theres always a smart arse

I must admit, I used to find it a lot easier to race with kb than wheel, but I think its a case of the fact that to drive the kb really well, you have to spend hours upon hours practising. I'm sure if you did the same, you'd probably have the same performance. It may also be a fact that you're using a set that not suited to you. Have you tried others?

Edit: The only thing that the stablisation does, is countersteer, as far as I am aware. The Ks system was also altered recently - things used to be a lot easier for the Ks'ers *ducks*

It looks like this for me:

I was looking at people driving with KS and I saw that they are driving in a strange style. It was not realistic without ESP. Remember that they have 0/1 throttle and 200+ HP.

There's certainly no unfair advantage to using keyboard (anymore). Just because a kb users manages to get the WR doesn't mean kb is necessarily fastest.

If there are fast kb users out there, they have earnt it. And if they can get a WR, they've some serisous tapping skillz.

I'm watching "Best Motoring" from time to time. Drivers are racing on the track with many different cars. Interesting is that you can see pedals all the time during the race. You'll not see something like 0/1 throttle style. Why? Because they know how to drive and they want to win. No chance to make a good time without full analog throttle. That's why KS SHOULD NOT make a WR.

They must have HUUGE muscles on their fingers cos they tap so much

Yeah you'll shake there hand and it'll be a spasm where they're squeezing and releasing so fast

So keyboard is as good as wheels and pedals. Maybe we should tell that car's designers!! I can see that headers:
2005 > "Ferrari pattented 6 keys driving control"
2006 > "Shumacher won GP just with 6 keys !"

There is no wheel stabilized nor mouse stabilized. Do you want to play using kb? Play, but w/o stabilization!!! There is not allowed to help driving the car In F1 . I don't want to play against driver+algorithm.

The algorithm is very mild. Back when the system was introduced the test patches for 0.3E, the mildest form of help was used in the next patch (F). So believe me they're not getting much help.

As I suggested at the time, I would still prefer if the controller methods were "kb - no help" and "kb - limited", with the stability aid being put with the rest of the driver aids (and recorded in mprs for hotlapping). This was people can use the limited kb steering (which is essential to use kb at all) without the stability aid, if they so wish. Atm it's either all or nothing.

Yea, it was horrible back then. You could almost play LFS like its Need... counterpart.

It really pi**es me off when i see those hotlap charts, almost all of them are driving on the keyborad and mouse!!! I mean this is a SIM!, you shouldn't be able to make good times with mouse and keyboard!! I mean, i drive like a maniac, sweating, trying to modulate the gass, steering movements, and they just go, one hended, with other hand drinking soda, and make world records!! I mean, WTF??

Don't exaggerate, it's not that easy. And anyway you need your other hand to change gear/wipe the sweat off your brow.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

It really pi**es me off when i see those hotlap charts, almost all of them are driving on the keyborad and mouse!!! I mean this is a SIM!, you shouldn't be able to make good times with mouse and keyboard!! I mean, i drive like a maniac, sweating, trying to modulate the gass, steering movements, and they just go, one hended, with other hand drinking soda, and make world records!! I mean, WTF??

Try and beat your best GTT wheel time with keyboard.

You might realise how little help there is with KB compared to the old system that died with S1.

The mouse and KB control is fine how it is now. There was a huge thrash through from most of the community and a number of revisions to the system before it reach the current state.

Driving with KB takes skill and lots of it now. If they are faster its because they are better.

Probably if you gave those WR keyboard/mouse players a wheel, they would smoke you then too. Some people just have the knack for it. It frustrates me that I get on the server to practice/qualify for the next league race all week. I run 200+ laps. Then a certain someone jumps on the final hour of qualifying and beats the WR after 6 laps. He texted (real word?) "/w laps" on the server and he had I think 16 laps logged on that track. I sweated for 200+ laps to get withing 10 seconds of the WR. And I was getting pretty satisfied with my times toward the end.

Ok, they are good, but that shouldn't be the case.. I don't think that they would be good at the wheel, because it's totally different technique, and it takes skills of driving, not just learning the track and clicking! I am not saying that it should be more difficult for them, but it just pi*ess me off! , that's all..
If they really like the game, and racing/driving.. then they should buy a wheel..

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Ok, they are good, but that shouldn't be the case.. I don't think that they would be good at the wheel, because it's totally different technique, and it takes skills of driving, not just learning the track and clicking! I am not saying that it should be more difficult for them, but it just pi*ess me off! , that's all..

Its not just a case of clicking, they have to modulate the throttle/steering just like you. Only they dont have the advantage of an analogue device.

My guess, is that you're just a crap driver compared to the people that are beating you.

You have to remember, some of the kb/mouse people, have played LFS for years, they know this game inside out.

And people should play the game with whatever they can afford/feel most comftable with, if thats a kb and mouse, then fine.

[edit] Going from KB to wheel is no problem, wheel is a hell of a lot easier to use then KB is, where RWD cars are concerned.

Sorry, i was really nervous at work, stayed waaayy too long then i should have!, so i wrote some stuff, that i didn't mean.. I know that many can't afford the wheel..
BTW, i am not a crap driver, i run 1.33.330 on Blacwood with GTI.. with not so many practice..

Quote from madmak :

So, my idea is to make driving with KS and mouse harder.

Somehow I have the feeling that with for certain people it'll be all the same.
You can filter out the hotlap records based on controller in lfsworld though, so if looking at KB times vexes anyone they don't really have to see them...

Quote :

The algorithm is very mild. Back when the system was introduced the test patches for 0.3E, the mildest form of help was used in the next patch (F). So believe me they're not getting much help.

Sometimes not much is enough. You can see that developers are deciding how fast KS drivers are. More help in KS system and KS drivers are on top. Less help and W drivers are on top.
I'm sure that skilled drivers racing with KS will not change the controller even for free. I'll not believe in fast racing with keybord w/o help. They are good, because they know how to use that help. Watch hotlap replay of the best KS and the best W drivers. You'll see that KS algorithm makes a lot of small corrections during milliseconds (left-right). Especially when driving on the edge (100,1% of what car can make).
Some of you are driving with KS and u'll never admit that it's sometimes easer for you.

Remember LFS is a SIM. It simulates reality, and in car, reality means wheel and pedals. There's no KS in my car. So simulation of what is KS?

Yeah, I know. KS is a simulation of a wheel (and more)...

Quote from L(Oo)ney :

<...>
And people should play the game with whatever they can afford/feel most comftable with, if thats a kb and mouse, then fine.
<...>

I dont really care about this issue, but the "can afford" argument is kind of weak. Someone playing LFS obviously have a computer setup that cost them at least 400 euro (and probably more than 1000 euro). Add to that the 24 euro for the game and the cost for a broadband internet connection. If your economy allows for this, in order to play a game, then you can damn sure save up to 150 euro for a decent wheel in a rather short time.
So those driving with the keyboard do so out of choice not necessity.

And regarding the arguments against driving-aids with the keyboard... I am sure that those who get good laptimes are good at LFS whatever they use. But players are competing online against each other and as long as there are "different rules for different people" there will be lots of arguing about it. For that reason alone it would make sense to either a) have no driving aids for anything or b) restricting races to either or both controller types.

Steve

Well i don't know how it is in other countries, but here the costs of broadband internet (DSL) are much less expensive then it would be if ure using ISDN or 56.6 internet connections, because it's flatrate, so i think that this would save money and not be more expensive. For the rest: I think it could be possible for most racers to bye a wheel, they're not so expensive anymore as they used to be, for 25 euro's you already get a cheap one without FF (Actually i already saw FF wheels for approximative 50 euros).

You can't force people to buy a wheel. Some people are THAT much into sim racing to justify the expense. LFS needs to cater for people with a life as well.

Also wheels take up space - I had to wait 10 months until I moved house so I had room for a bigger desk to put the wheel on. With the miniscule PC desks that some people use it's no wonder some people are forced to use kb or mouse.

There are driving aids available to everyone: auto clutch, brake help, throttle help (though that's not very useful). The steering help is only available to kb users, since that's the only controller method that is digital and needs such an aid. Mouse, joystick, wheel; all are analogue and can easily be positioned anywhere, at any speed, with any precision. This is the advantage they have over kb input.

When you start seeing people with KB getting loads of WR's and you start getting beat when racing with KB then you can moan that KB people have an advantage.

That's not going to happen btw. I used KB for demo and for about a month of S2 and I hated it! I couldn't really drive the more powerful RWD cars (except the FO8 on the oval) and even the XFR was no fun cause I'd burn the tyres within a lap on the longer circuits.

Why do you care so much that someone has got a WR with a KB with a car that no one really use's, except demo people and thats cause they don't have a choice?

If you think using the KB will give you an advantage then try it and you'll fine out how wrong you are!

All gamers have a keyboard, only a few (statistically seen) have a wheel. Therefore, if both control systems are equal, there should be more kb's than wheeldrivers in the rankings.

Anyways, I use a mouse because it's more towards realism than a keyboard.. until I have a wheel

Quote from Bob Smith :

There are driving aids available to everyone: auto clutch, brake help, throttle help (though that's not very useful). The steering help is only available to kb users, since that's the only controller method that is digital and needs such an aid. Mouse, joystick, wheel; all are analogue and can easily be positioned anywhere, at any speed, with any precision. This is the advantage they have over kb input.

Yep, if you want to complain about KB users having an unfair advantage because of help and they should buy a wheel if they want to race LFS, then you should be forced to use a clutch pedal or have to use auto transmission. If you drive any of the road cars, then you'd better have an h-pattern shifter. Road cars don't have sequential shifters or auto clutches. You'd better upgrade your PC if you can't drive in cockpit view and use wheels view because of frames. The wheel view you could say gives an unfair advantage. (I use it for frame rate, I hate it and am slower, no advantage). I've been beaten by KB users as well as wheel users. I can't come close to WR times. So what advantage does the other wheel users have that I don't? Since I can't achieve the times they do. They don't have an advantage. They just happen to be that good.