Quote :

but I also think that olddog left little room for shawn

His turn in based on your pictures wasn't wildly different but I havn't studied the replay on that, in any case Olddog is entitled to carry on racing whereas Shaun wasn't, he was toward the end of a long drawn out accident and should have realised - after the considerable time since his accident started, that he was having an accident. Cars where passing him and infact Olddog was, arguably, the second car to go through.

Olddog was still racing and had every right to carry on as normal and expect Shaun not to interfere with his chosen line. A driver rejoining the circuit has no rights at all. It's simple really, he had an off track excursion and turned it in an accident without lifting or ever recovering the car.

Olddog on the other hand was racing, not having an accident, and become involved in the tail end of another drivers accident because that driver rejoined the circuit and not only "didnt look" so to speak, but was pushing hard despite not yet recovering to the racing line.

Personally, and of course it is just a personal opinion, I cannot see any justification for Shaun at all. Whilst it isn't the end of the world and accidents happen, that doesnt make it a "racing accident" just because both drivers where racing. The fact is one of them shouldn't have been at that moment in time.

It's also important to remember that Shaun was technically the lead car at the onset of the incident, and therefor it was Shawn who "closed the door" by restricting the road available to Olddog, and Olddog has established significant overlap - infact he was infront at the point of contact.

Olddog cannot be expected to see sideways and still look where he's going.

Quote from Turbo Love :

LOL, are you guys serious? Permssion to post that? Come on it's not that serious, no laws are being broken dsicussing this incident.

It's a simple matter of courtesy. I wouldn't have thought that needed spelling out, but there you go.

I've looked at the replay again and I think you are right that shawn was wrong in the way he rejoined the track. olddog appeared in his outside mirror, but I dont know if his FOV settings allowed him to see that mirror (he also showed in his internal mirror, but a little bit less apparant). He should have lifted as he got off the grass and saw that people were coming from behind.
Having that said, I still think that for olddog it would have been better to take a little bit of a wider line. Even if you have the right, you cant expect someone to dissapear. But maybe that is a matter of experience.

Or perhaps, a matter of hindsight ...

I accept what you are saying about being on the grass, but the incident occured on the far side of the track.

The key issue here, the fact that cannot be overlooked:

Despite heading strait for it Shaun never got as far as the racing line or race speed before colliding with another vehicle. This fairly categorically says it's a case of rejoining the track without due precaution. I think both drivers could have avoided it and with hindsight would have, but by the book it was Shaun's obligation to have avoided it, I think it was inneviteable given his method of recovery. (charge back onto racing line at full throttle whilst knowing cars are passing).

The debate on this has amased me, perhaps a little of real-racer arrogance creaping in, maybe some over confidence in my judgement/opinion - but seeing the debate here has made me realise that the most unrealistic element of LFS is in many ways the user base, because to me it's a no brainer ... Strangely, I get taken out by somebody rejoining the track once a week or so ... Now I know why ... In LFS it's a racing accident.

Quote from chp101 :

It was Olddog's fault.
He could overtake him with full pedal, but he dropped it and then went into S when the line was not clear.

It was Shaun's fault on 110th second (against Olddog btw). Overall Shaun is fast, fair and just a bit too agressive.

I guess thats with ignorant demo racer rules ?

seems we've had some serious miscommunication around this one... sorry to anyone I've frustrated by posting it. Didn't really think the incident was bad enough driving from either to be at all concerned about posting it. Have since learnt (once again ) that others view things differently.

Quote from Blowtus :

seems we've had some serious miscommunication around this one... sorry to anyone I've frustrated by posting it. Didn't really think the incident was bad enough driving from either to be at all concerned about posting it. Have since learnt (once again ) that others view things differently.

hehe, stirred up a hornets nest
Seems like it was a discussion that we needed to have, and will probably have again. You just provided the catalyst

For me 're-joining recklessly after some off-roading' is up there with 'exiting pit lane without due care', and 'lapped backmarkers racing leaders'!

Seems that opinion is somewhat polarised on this one though.

col

Judging by the race as a whole and his racing mentality, I'd have to say he was probably more concerned about losing a place (or losing as little time as possible), than showing the appropiate caution when re-joining.Maybe he just didn't notice olddog was approaching, or maybe he hoped he could reenter the track in time to prevent a pass, no one knows but him I suppose - but either way, he is quite clearly the one at fault imo.
He could have let olddog pass and pulled another outbraking genious on him in T1, not much difference, except we wouldn't be having this discussion

there was nothing wrong with him re joining track but he should have kept tight to left and allowed olddog to pass, given the position on the track he would have been back to racing speed very quickly as it wasn't like he would be rejoining halfway down longest straight. with his ability (if a bit agressive) to pass under braking i suspect he could have made place back by end of race

Quote from col :

I guess thats with ignorant demo racer rules ?

I didnt even know Aston was in the demo

Quote from chp101 :

One shouldn't keep tight to left, one should leave a line (actually to chose a line and not block-crash). So he did.
Who of two would have to brake to hold their line inside S - that's teh question.
Prolly Shaun thought he would be the one to slip first and hold it better or cross-line Olddog who would have to slow down on exit.
Either way it was a racing incident caused (and suffered the most) by Olddog, who could overtake Shaun with full pedal with Shaun not wasting his pace as well.

So, going by your rules:
When one is joining the track teh other drivers should prolly get right out of teh way coz if a crash is happens its their fault (prolly) right ?
DOH

"its easy"
Not with your illeteracy it isn't. I'm still not sure who's fault you are saying it is, but your earlier post sighted Olddog, which was so wrong (a view shared only by yourself in this whole controversial thread) that I would have laughed if the thought of meeting you on track didn't make me too scared to open my mouth...

WTF are you talking about?

We're discussing an accident involving a car which failed to safely pass 1 car, went off, and crashed into another when rejoining.

What are you talking about?

I think this is good that these types of racing incidents show up here. Maybe more people will come to realize that it's more than just driving a car fast in racing.

Shaun was at fault IMO, he was not up to speed yet after going off the track and should have left room for the other driver to pass, all that had to be done was was for shaun to do a bit of braking to fall behind him. illepall

Quote from chp101 :

Take a deep breath and read as slow as possible.

..he should have kept tight to left and allowed olddog to pass. (c) Tyrion
..shouldn't keep tight to left, one should leave a line (c) me

..coz if a crash is happens its their fault (prolly) right ? (c) col
..to chose a line and not block-crash (c) me earlier

See, it's easy

2 kwijibo - there is no Aston in demo and there is no demo on my hdd

Giving you the benefit of the doubt (that you're not a troll) I'm sorry chp101 - in my last post I was "extracting teh urine"
Your writing style is so full of grammatical errors that is is difficult to understand what you mean in any detail - other that you believe that Olddog was in the wrong.
I chose sarcasm rather than a complete explanation of why I and many others disagree with you because I felt you prolly wouldn't understand anyway
sorry again, it was a cheap shot

for what its worth, and in an attemt to explain what has already been explained numerous times in this thread:

If a driver makes an error or is involved in an incident that leaves them off the track, their number one priority is to re-join safely, without affecting any of the racers who are on-track! Just as though they were leaving pitlane.
It doesn't matter If OldDog braked, or swerved or kept his line or accellerated, or farted - it is irrelevant. It also doesn't matter if Shaun is worried about losing a place, damaging his car, winning the race, or the state of European economics - these are also all equally equally irrelevant - in other words they do not matter !

Shaun was in the wrong because he rejoined the track in a way that meant he forced Olddog to take evasive action (get out of his way). That was a bad thing to do - not a good thing !

Quote from chp101 :

2 kwijibo - there is no Aston in demo and there is no demo on my hdd

So what is it on your HDD???

Quote from col :

If a driver makes an error or is involved in an incident that leaves them off the track, their number one priority is to re-join safely, without affecting any of the racers who are on-track! Just as though they were leaving pitlane.
It doesn't matter If OldDog braked, or swerved or kept his line or accellerated, or farted - it is irrelevant. It also doesn't matter if Shaun is worried about losing a place, damaging his car, winning the race, or the state of European economics - these are also all equally equally irrelevant - in other words they do not matter !!

Spot on IMO

Quote from chp101 :

yadda yadda

:nol2::wave2:

Quote from chp101 :

One of main logic (rule) tells "hold your line". So it's Olddog who broke rule first...

This rule only counts when both drivers are on track and racing before they reach a corner.

If driver A is off-track, and driver B is on-track and racing, driver B can take ANY line he wants - if driver A joins the track without due care and is immediately involved in an accident/incident with driver B, then driver A is at fault. (assuming driver B hasn't lost control and spun into driver A, or some other unusual exception)

Quote from chp101 :

The damn "S2 licensed" status will show up as soon as Victor changes my forum's name (there was a limit to 4 symbols before).

You should be able to login with your web username & password fine. No need for Victor to change anything

Quote :

1) It was almost a "short-cut" actually
2) There was quite a gap and from what could be seen from replay Shaun's situation awarness was OK (it's almost impossible to say the opposite).
3) Both drivers were on track, didn't block each other and had chosen their lines

Your wrong, Shaun had not returned to the racing line, any line he had used previously, or any other line which would have got him through the corner under normal circumstances, he was still driving across the track toward the racing line when the incident with Olddog began and was still positioned in the middle of the track with his car at the wrong angle, in other words, he had not finished his recovery.

Therefor the accident with Olddog takes place as part of the preceeding accident (where Shaun had spun trying to pass another car and braked several eons too late), and not as a seperate incident.

This takes precedent over racing regulations in motor racing because it is a safety issue, whilst no chance of personal injury exists in LFS short of wrist ache and eye tests (what will the opticians think!) we still use the rules of racing as a guideline for racing ettiquette, therefor the accident is Shaun's fault, and in real racing it would actually be quite serious because of the safety aspect - in LFS it's a slap on the wrist and not really deserving of this huge debate, but that is forums for you.

You may disagree but you are still wrong, and i've been a clerk of the course at two club level races and numerous rental, and a flag marshall at many more.

A driver has not "recovered" until they have resumed their normal racing line and speed which in this case blatantly did not happen in either aspect.

In the case of this accident Shaun should have recovered to the track and proceeded through the S with due care, he had not even reached the S bend and he was already leaning on and late braking another car.

This one is not even a close call, really it isn't.

As an LFS race clerk (if such a thing existed) i'd have dealt with it after the race, probably a 1 lap penalty and a license endorsement. In a real race i'd have thrown a black for dangerous driving.

I havn't rewatched the replay and studied it again, but your picture clearly shows the line Olddog took on the lap of the accident (top left) was repeated on another lap (bottom right) with no other car present.

Shauns speed, according to the figure you quote, is noteably down on his normal speed at that point of the circuit. The overhead photo shows he is significantly offline.

He had not recovered. Olddog therefor took a line expecting, quite rightly, for Shaun to cede. I would go as far as guessing he probably didn't even expect Shaun to be as close as he was given the speed differential.

We may have to agree to disagree here, at the end of the day it's the decision of the clerk of the course. Who in this case happened to agree with me.

Which pretty much says it all...

Quote from chp101 :

Or rather it were you who happened to agree with a clerk?
And what was the point of this thread then? Should we all now change our minds and throw away our opinions and arguments?
What if I were the clerk, should all other shut up then?
...etc. etc. etc.

Either you believe that going offtrack then re-joining without due care is perfectly good driving - or you are a troll.

because everything you describe happens after Shaun re-joined recklessly, and is part of him re-joining. There is no break, or pause between Shaun re-joining and the accident in question - they are the SAME INCIDENT !

so which is it?

do you you disagree with my (and Beckys and most other drivers - sim and real life ) belief that re-joining recklessly is dangerous driving and the perpetrator is the guilty party in any resulting accident ?

OR

are you a TROLL ?