Hello, 1st mess in this forum so hello to all LFS RACERS!!!

First, sorry for my bad english,but my problem is simple

Think about years LFS is the the best online sim game, but something really disturb me.

A lot of drivers own wheel able ton turn 900° lock to lock "g25,dfp,fanatec,etc..." but few of them use the real settings 720°for example in tbo...

Or don't use clutch in tbo or fz for example even if they have 3 pedals.


Don't want to force anybody to play real and fun but in the hard settings in the server search will it be possible to recognize if people use shifter or clutch for example ??? I'm sure will interest more people to drive not like on/off with a 200° wheel lock and paadles with funny cars like tbo or ufr and it can make the race more equal

Thx for answers

best reggards

R4R BobbY°

Racing is all about finding an advantage within the rules. What does it matter if they prefer smaller rotation angles? It's ultimately a compromise, anyway, between steering speed and accuracy. If they're comfortable with faster steering, what does it matter to you?

i don't matter for that, if they want to drive a unrealistic way its not my problem and if they like i think is good for them, i just want to have a hard settings section in server search wich recognize people who use shifter and clutch for example or angle of rotation use in profiler ... Don't want to force any mouse driver or wheel unrealist driver just want to konw if an option like that can be added in server search ...

If the devs would add such a option, i suspect there would be no servers in your list. You have the "hard" option in the server list, that forces the cockpit view ,and that gives you in the main time maybe 5 server with 5 people.

I know I'd be likely found in that group, and I know there are a lot of other people that play with realistic settings;

That said I don't think adding that option would solve much as Forbin said, it is down to preference how sensitive, or quick, your steering wheel turns.

Quote from blackbird04217 :

That said... it is down... or quick, your steering wheel turns.

That would mean you would also need a minimum of force feedback strengh, to be realistic.

I don't understand what the piece of quote from me you put together means, but I wasn't saying the idea should or should not be implemented. I do drive with very strong FFB settings as it is my preference for getting closer to the car. You do have to be careful when doing that though especially in the casual environment when people crash into other after race; it almost broke my hand once -no joke.

Again. I can't say the idea of a "Realism Only" server setting would be good or bad; or changing the current filter to only allow players with X FFB, Wheel Rotation and other settings.

Yes it was a bad on. It was meant in the way " how much force feedback is minimum required to give a realistic steering wheel rotation speed,according to real life. And i want give no hints for I-robbery:faint:

( Sorry for my english)

Enforcing a minimum wheel rotation or minimum FFB, sadly, is impossible. LFS only "knows" the wheel rotation based on what the user sets it to in the controls. It could be 720° there but 360° in the Profiler*. Same with FFB, ingame FFB could be 100, but 0 in Profiler*.

* Or the equivalent to it for other, non-Logitech wheels.

Enforcing the use of an H-gate shifter and an axis clutch is possible though, but as Ger Roady pointed out, you probably wouldn't get any players on a server that does.

On the subject of whether it matters or not:

XFG - first "realistic" (shifter, axis clutch) time: KIRPICHD 1:33.760, 86(!)th position.
There is not a single WR done in a manual car that actually was a manual, and we can't even see the wheel rotation and whether FFB was on or off.

So yes, it matters, big time.

I agree with Forbin.

Yesterday my Dad came into the room asking questions like "howcome your wheel turns so fast", and, "why are you left foot braking instead of heel&toe-ing?".
I answered, "well, it's faster. If I could do them in my racecar - I would."

It's all about having that advantage over your oponents. Even if you find some wheel settings, that gives you hardly a noticible difference, you say that's an advantage.

I once raced a race at we1r XRT with 3 pedals and 720 degrees rotation. With some practice, and a totally different set (couldn't use locked diff because I was not able to 'slide' the car around the track like you normally have to in LFS) I was just as fast as I was with left foot braking and paddle shifters. Having said that, Westhill is more of an accuracy track. At somewhere like South City, it's definitely not as fast. Having said that - I have been pretty fast around a few SO tracks with the "hardcore realism" setup.

Of course - there is a time advantage with the less realistic option.

The way I see it, the less you have to do behind the wheel - the faster you are. So if you don't have to concentrate of heel & toe, or having to take your hand off the wheel for a split second to reach for more lock as you go sideways you will gain time. And that's why 75% of the fast drivers on LFS uses 400 degrees of steering lock or less.

I only use the amount of lock specified for each car, and the clutch when available.

I am sure it does not make me faster, but I did not buy this G25 to use it as if it were an improved mouse!

The question is: what do you expect from this game (or simracing)?
How do you enjoy it the best?
If you like it when you are the fast one around, reduce FFB and rotations, use auto or buttonclutch (or use a macro).
If you like it to feel a bit closer to a real car, use it as it should and suck it up - you will be slower this way but might enjoy it more. You may not win but you will find good fights as well.

I've thought of changing around the pedals altogether and retraining myself To me the ideal pedal set up could be:
Left Pedal - Brake
Middle Pedal - Clutch
Right Pedal - Throttle

Quote from [DUcK] :

I agree with Forbin.

Yesterday my Dad came into the room asking questions like "howcome your wheel turns so fast", and, "why are you left foot braking instead of heel&toe-ing?".
I answered, "well, it's faster. If I could do them in my racecar - I would."

It's all about having that advantage over your oponents. Even if you find some wheel settings, that gives you hardly a noticible difference, you say that's an advantage.

And that's part of what kills LFS for me, unfortunately. The fact that so many people will use "unrealistic" settings to gain advantage instead of just driving the way the car is supposed to be driven. No matter how you put it, you'll always be at a disadvantage using H-shifter, clutch and 720° compared to someone using paddles + auto-clutch and 300° (with two drivers of similar skill, of course).

I agree there is little to nothing that can be done about it, but if there were an option like the OP suggested then I would surely be found in those servers, and I'm sure there'd be a lot more people in them than some of you seem to think. This isn't the first time this has been suggested, either.

Ok all thx for answearing,
Once again i don't post to force anybody to drive real
I know that driving 400° with paddles is easier,faster etc..... but not realistic

Don't want to have 100 Wr's, just want have fun with other drivers

So just want a filter for server, not more

ps: Some Wr are with shifter/clutch ----> so1/rac for example

And if another filter allow to filter Wr by realism(clutch, wheel lock etc ...) owners won't be the same ^^

Once again thx 4 answearing, don't want to judge anybody, u've got all ur opinion and it's good (make the world not uniform...)

My request its just like for my coffee a good FILTER for server and why not an answer give me the idea, for WR too...

in all case see u on track
bye

That's almost impossible to implement, a game can't know the actual wheel lock of hardware, or FB strength. Or if not impossible then very hard anyway, game have to ask those parameters from wheel drivers of every vendor, and im not sure if that information is even available at driver level? And if it's done it's very easy to bypass anyway.

The wheel lock setting in LFS does not mean the wheel actually turns that much.

What comes to shifter & axis clutch, those things could be very easily detected with insim script, right?

How much fb force is needed for it to be realistic? Depends highly on situation, if you smash your front wheel to railing 200kmh you need quite a lot for it to feel realistic. Enough to break your fingers. For normal racing situations, if i remember correctly i've heard it's somewhere around 10kg force on the ring of std size racing wheel. If std racing wheel is 30cm that would mean 30Nm (right?), which is waaaaay more than any fb wheel on market can produce. Of course it's varies a lot depending on car.

Quote from obsolum :

And that's part of what kills LFS for me, unfortunately. The fact that so many people will use "unrealistic" settings to gain advantage instead of just driving the way the car is supposed to be driven. No matter how you put it, you'll always be at a disadvantage using H-shifter, clutch and 720° compared to someone using paddles + auto-clutch and 300° (with two drivers of similar skill, of course).

I agree there is little to nothing that can be done about it, but if there were an option like the OP suggested then I would surely be found in those servers, and I'm sure there'd be a lot more people in them than some of you seem to think. This isn't the first time this has been suggested, either.

What's to keep a real life car from having fully-adjustable steering (maybe even drive-by-wire), paddles, and an autoclutch?

Quote from Forbin :

What's to keep a real life car from having fully-adjustable steering (maybe even drive-by-wire), paddles, and an autoclutch?

Money I suppose, but that's not the point. The point is that the cars we're talking about are simulated as manuals in Live for Speed and should be driven as such

Napkins are designed for wiping your face and should be used as such. That doesn't mean you can't blow your nose or wipe your ass with one.

Quote from bobbyfish :

Don't want to have 100 Wr's, just want have fun with other drivers

But why would you need special servers for that?

It doesn't matter what steering input/settings the other driver uses as long as you have fun racing against him, does it?

Quote from Forbin :

Napkins are designed for wiping your face and should be used as such. That doesn't mean you can't blow your nose or wipe your ass with one.

You can't drive a real manual as if it were a sequential :rolleyes: And if you do in LFS, you're quite simply missing the point of a simulation

And Zeug, if the advantages of their unrealistic controls balance out with their skill, sure, can be fun, but aliens (skill-wise) using unrealistic controls to improve their times even further, no, that's not what I consider fun.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and compare that to doping in sports, but then, I don't wanna start another auto-clutch-ban-kind of argument again. I've voiced my opinion, so I'm just gonna go sit in a corner and observe.

Morpha seems to be on the same line as me on this. Thanks for explaining it

Hello bobbyfish!
I absolute agree with you! I'm also totally prefer the absolute most realistic driving as it is possible in the LFS simulator, regardless that other people using paddles, small wheel lock and without clutch. Using all pedals and shifter and 720-900 wheel lock is disadvantage against them who using NFS or other arcade game controller settings, but important for me is realism and driving experience and pleasure/enjoyment at racing and driving the car - it is highest priority for me. Be winner is secound priority for me. For maximum realism I'm playing LFS and not NFS or GTA
I'm driving all LFS car as it is defined at that original parameters (clutch, shifter sequential/paddle/H, real wheel lock/turn) and also have made analog handbrake for more handbrake realism! In past times when there were not possible to get more realistic game controller wheel on the market, I had Thrustmaster, but I made analog clutch for it! Here are photos about my first Thrustmaster wheel with homemade clutch and latter the homemade handbrake with Logitech G25.
http://picasaweb.google.sk/pet ... jYzQE&feat=directlink
And then this was my cockpit:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_nAuME7_f ... 02006-2008%20%2804%29.jpg
And then I begun the works on new professional cockpit:
http://picasaweb.google.com/pe ... nz6AE&feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.sk/pet ... iMpgE&feat=directlink
Most precision pedal settings and mounting with LoadCell sensor, and possibilities to set the pedals to LEFT or RIGHT side especially for each car type (with or without clutch as road cars or formulas)
http://picasaweb.google.sk/pet ... oGqGw&feat=directlink
And the dashboard manufactoring:
http://picasaweb.google.sk/pet ... 3ngAE&feat=directlink

Now whole cockpit is complete for 99%, but there are still remaining dashboard lights. I'm still working on it. But final photos will comnig if you want see it, also video will coming, but after if it will totally complete. There no many work remaining, but I'm independent from my friend who know programming and from his free time for me, because there is need additional works with electronics and programming.
Now I have professional cockpit with all functions as in real car (motion system, wheel up to 900, analog handbrake, movable and switchable H/SEQ-shifter for street or race cars, movable pedals for precision position for each car with LoadCell), but there I have still problems with skill I not need to drive NFS or GTA or other unrealistic GAMES. I need most realistic simulator (what LFS is best), but there need many practice and skill. I have still problem with heel-and-toe technique. It is too hard to me learn it. It could be better with professional race teacher, because now I'm learning it based only to my own experiences. But things what I can made with smaller cars as UF1 or XFG, that I can do it in real life with real cars with same parameters. But I have not access to real race cars and GTR cars, unfortunatelly. It's all at this time, but if you interested about final cockpit photos and videos, then let me know it, and I will inform you about it.

Also sorry for my bad english

Quote from morpha :

You can't drive a real manual as if it were a sequential :rolleyes: And if you do in LFS, you're quite simply missing the point of a simulation

And Zeug, if the advantages of their unrealistic controls balance out with their skill, sure, can be fun, but aliens (skill-wise) using unrealistic controls to improve their times even further, no, that's not what I consider fun.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and compare that to doping in sports, but then, I don't wanna start another auto-clutch-ban-kind of argument again. I've voiced my opinion, so I'm just gonna go sit in a corner and observe.

aliens (skill-wise) using unrealistic controls, will continue to be aliens no matter what kind of settings they adopt...

That's quite a cockpit you've got there petervsp! I wonder how you analog handbrake works in LFS, though, as I always thought that LFS doesn't support analog controls for the handbrake. It's either on or off, no?

Quote from morpha :

You can't drive a real manual as if it were a sequential :rolleyes: And if you do in LFS, you're quite simply missing the point of a simulation

And Zeug, if the advantages of their unrealistic controls balance out with their skill, sure, can be fun, but aliens (skill-wise) using unrealistic controls to improve their times even further, no, that's not what I consider fun.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and compare that to doping in sports, but then, I don't wanna start another auto-clutch-ban-kind of argument again. I've voiced my opinion, so I'm just gonna go sit in a corner and observe.

You're quite simply missing the point of a competition.

My race bike doesn't have a slipper clutch, meaning I have to be very careful with my downshifts while braking. It doesn't come with one stock, but other riders in my race class have installed one in their bikes, allowing them to bang off downshifts with wild abandon and not slide the rear tire. I'm therefore at a disadvantage because I don't have that part.

What am I going to do? Whine, kick, and scream that it's unfair because the bike doesn't come with one? No, I go out and get one so I stay competitive.