Quote from Dac :

Have you got any proof of this?

I can honestly say from the very bottom of my heart, no! but i also dont have proof that says it cannot be done aswell...

It´s pure speculation like 99% of the post in this forum. But since there are no such thing as a team with absolutely no budget and an infinite number of cars and parts, unlimited tracktime with the very same conditions 24/7... and ofcourse a suicidal driver with skills... there is the reason why it´s not done IRL.

Im do however believe it can be done...in theory, the movie with that Blackwood lap doesnt look that overly unrealistic to me TBH im sure that if you view that same lap from the drive by view it doesnt look that extreme. Just like real F1 doesnt look that extreme when they just zip by on TV.

In IRL though... like i said its to many factors besides the driving that comes into play...

Actual tyre physics allow to drift too easily without loosing time.
That's why we are all waiting for that patch ^^

Beyond the physics, one small thing separates IRL and simulator world records.

In many tracks, there are spots which you maybe might be able to take the same way as in lfs world record. But you only can make it one time out of ten, and nine times you end up crashing the hell out of you, and probably one time of those nine you just die or at least end up in ER.

In other words, in simulation you can push it to 100% limits, crash,crash,crash and crash and finally do it, and slowly learn to do it more and more often, which in IRL is not possible. In real racing you must drive much less aggressive or your career will not last very long. So in theory it's possible irl also, but in practice you just can't use the try-n-crash training method near as aggressive as in simulator.

I want to see the crazy sob who cuts the FE chicane IRL like in game. Well, bad example, you probably break your suspension so badly the lap stops right there. I think damage model in LFS is much more unrealistic than tyre physics, and personally i just hate those tracks which exploits the damage model and physics engine issues. Coz i can't drive them properly.

No you don't take any risks by drifting in a corner in LFS. It's easy, safe and can even make you gain some time in some corners.

Quote from Sir moi 407 :

No you don't take any risks by drifting in a corner in LFS. It's easy, safe and can even make you gain some time in some corners.

How come this is so unrealistic? Small amount of oversteer while entering the corner isn't that bad irl, nor difficult nor dangerous nor slow. Usually much faster than understeer. Big drift angle or drifting on corner exit is bad.

Yep, small and only sometimes with some cars.
With LFS you can make huge drifts with any road, race car (that's why I think SS are actually the most realistic cars in this game)
But why do you think Scawen is working on new Tyre Physics, why do you think Drift has so much success in this game?
Admit it: it's too easy to drift with actual Tyre Physics.

Quote from JPeace :

are you blind?
he turns in agressivly, and so does alonso, this turns the back around slightly, causing a slight slide, or drift, which scrubbs off enough speed to enable him to connect with the apex and get much better exit speed, people in BTCC i have seen doing it too. sorry but i think you are completely wrong about all this and dont know what your talking about.

i absoultely agree with you

Quote from Sir moi 407 :

Yep, small and only sometimes with some cars.
With LFS you can make huge drifts with any road, race car (that's why I think SS are actually the most realistic cars in this game)
But why do you think Scawen is working on new Tyre Physics, why do you think Drift has so much success in this game?
Admit it: it's too easy to drift with actual Tyre Physics.

Yes i totally agree it is a bit too easy to drift especially with slicks. But i think the actual problem is that there isn't enough friction when not drifting, at the point when the drifting starts (don't know the correct term in english) so cars starts to drift in situation where it should not. So you have to drift, if you want to be fast. Bcos the car starts to drift too easily.

I think more aggressive angle of attack is needed. Not sure if the lap times are decreased, but the way the car goes thru the corner at the same speed is hopefully changed.

Road cars doesn't feel ultra realistic either, i mean, i used to own 170hp RWD road car and well, XRG tail feels very very slippery compared to that. You don't have to be that careful with throttle with those horsepowers irl, it's very hard to get a drift at high speed just with throttle on dry tarmac, simply not enough power. And XRG has what, like 140hp?

It's just too slippery, like driving on wet tarmac irl. Or gravel. And at gravel controlled small drifting is usually fastest way to go.

But soon it will all change...

My actual point was, that even with realistic physics the simulator WR's will still be higher than IRL. Not to argue that LFS physics are ultra realistic.

And driving at the gravel in LFS is sooooo smooth, feels like driving on ice with normal road winter tyres.. No worries, no hurry to catch it up, just long smooth slides all over the place.

Quote from mdmx :

Yes i totally agree it is a bit too easy to drift especially with slicks. But i think the actual problem is that there isn't enough friction when not drifting, at the point when the drifting starts (don't know the correct term in english) so cars starts to drift in situation where it should not. So you have to drift, if you want to be fast. Bcos the car starts to drift too easily.

I think more aggressive angle of attack is needed. Not sure if the lap times are decreased, but the way the car goes thru the corner at the same speed is hopefully changed.

Road cars doesn't feel ultra realistic either, i mean, i used to own 170hp RWD road car and well, XRG tail feels very very slippery compared to that. You don't have to be that careful with throttle with those horsepowers irl, it's very hard to get a drift at high speed just with throttle on dry tarmac, simply not enough power. And XRG has what, like 140hp?

It's just too slippery, like driving on wet tarmac irl. Or gravel. And at gravel controlled small drifting is usually fastest way to go.

But soon it will all change...

My actual point was, that even with realistic physics the simulator WR's will still be higher than IRL. Not to argue that LFS physics are ultra realistic.

And driving at the gravel in LFS is sooooo smooth, feels like driving on ice with normal road winter tyres.. No worries, no hurry to catch it up, just long smooth slides all over the place.

Totally agree, and I think we have found the answer!

I also hope the WR's will be more realistic with the new tyre and damage model patch. I also hope that the traction on the curbs will be reduced to stop being using them as a braking area WHICH THEY ARE NOT!

Quote from Dac :

Totally agree, and I think we have found the answer!

I also hope the WR's will be more realistic with the new tyre and damage model patch. I also hope that the traction on the curbs will be reduced to stop being using them as a braking area WHICH THEY ARE NOT!

I know you said karting's not really the same.
But using the example of Llandow that JPeace pointed out, the curbs there are just as grippy as the track itself and you use them, ALOT.

Quote :

not just llandow, rissington, whilton mill, Llyd, clay pigeon, fulbeck, PFI even freaking shennington.

:spin:

Quote :

But using the example of Llandow

Quote from JPeace :

not just llandow, rissington, whilton mill, Llyd, clay pigeon, fulbeck, PFI even freaking shennington.

and tbh, i think that you should look at rubans barrichello, he brakes in the middle of the track, middle to edge, and then, as he brakes, he moves onto the kurb. now, he doesn't spear off or go straight on, which you might think would happen if you are believing what mr dac is saying here. no he doesnt spear off, he turns in fine, gets on apex (which is usually taking a small amount of curb too) and exits (and again, runs up against the curb). as you have quite rightly said, karting is not the same as F1, but its still 4 wheels, and in karting you need a lot more feel than in an F1 car. some curbs work, some dont. but the majority do, also, in BTCC and singleseater formula classes, you can see them taking "nibbles" from the kurbs and sliding slightly to gain that extra tenth.

in real life, the absolute quickest way to go around a track quicker than the other drivers on the track is to find that small slither of finness between; sliding too much, and sliding too little, taking too much curb, or taking too little. and of course, if you take TOO MUCH CURB then you will lose traction and spin. curbing is, after all, not tacrmac and doesn't produce the same grip levels as tarmac does. hence why in the wet conditions, curbs and white lines are absolute "no"s as they are painted over and wet paint provides no grip for a driver attempting to drive a dry line over a curb.

which leads to the question of weather conditions in LFS, if the devs do decide that two different weather conditions (or more) would be a great addition to the game (which i think could be a good addition, but imo). then they would have to think long and hard about the variables in the game. you wouldnt be able to hammer the curbs like we do atm in the dry in the wet, just like real life. but i dont know if thats ever doing to happen.

back to the origional argument. i think, once again, that dac doesnt know what he is talking about, and if maybe intrepid could back me up on this? that hammering it over the curbs in some cases in IRL is the quickest way around the track. think about it, you are in affect, cutting the corner slightly by taking curbs. and we all know the quickest way around a corner is the shortest way... dont we?

cheers.

J

Well you have just answered my question. Curbs aren't tarmac, and they don't offer the same amount of traction. And that is why you never, or at least very rarely see F1 drivers braking on them to the same extent you do in LFS.

So actually, both my point on sliding and curb braking have been supported

Quote from JPeace :

yes, but not in the way you highlighted.

take the right amount of curb, and you will go quick, take too much you will spin, i am half agreeing with you that maybe these guys take a little but too much curb than they would in real life, but even so: you need to take curbs. some examples for you Mr.Dac: imola, the cars climb over the curbs there, and guess what? they are F1 cars. not karts, but F1 cars. and here is a little clip of that: "bounce across the curbs".. "use the curbs on the inside".. "limit the slip on the curb".. here

Nowhere in that video do I see hard braking on the curbs. Do you see what im on about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh_zsbKvyxk

See 0:44.

Quote from Forbin :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh_zsbKvyxk

See 0:44.

That's not a racing CAR, is it. Try that in something with 4 wheels and you've got a waltzer

Guys, dont try to fight the fact its not really optimal to maximum brake on a cerbstone :P That just impossible. And with cerbstone i mean cerbstone, not just some paint on the raid. And even with just paint its harder then normal.

If the curbs are so slick, it'd be even more hazardous on a bike. Lock the front and down you go.

In my experience, those curbs on Blackwood do provide less grip due to their bumpiness. You can get a better line by using them, though, so it balances out.

If you watch MotoGP qualifying at Misano, you'll see riders, especially Casey Stoner, slamming the bike over on its side while still on the curb. And wonder of all wonders, he doesn't crash.

Talking bout cars, with bikes i have absolutely no experience. But, can imagine that a cerbstone (like rumble strip) isnt optimal for a bike aswell!

Jpeace, it depends on corner and car aswell. In a heavy weight car, you can't get it out of the oversteering moment as fast as in LFS, a slide will make you loose speed aswell and wear tyres and make them more shit in the next because of overheating.

and then again i know alot of tracks where you can brake on the outer cerbstone before entering but thats just not smart to do. You cant brake as hard as you want and since the initial braking is really important ( specially downforce cars ) you want to do that right! Also it will change the way the car reacts when you turnin from a cerb.

Quote from JPeace :

any steering input will slow you down. you cant argue that, because its common known physics.

Contra steer is steering input aswell you know

Yeah sure there are some cerbs you can take, but thats mostly without any braking on it Even in Spa i smash my car on the cerbstone before entering eau rouge just to make the corner wider and have a better exit. So you defenitly right about that.

But i just cant seem to find corner where i brake on a cerbstone

Quote from JPeace :

think is, on lfs there are curbs on the entrance of corners because they also run a reverse type of the track, this doesn't happen in real life, because they dont run it backwards. but having said that, any curbs that are there on the entrance we use. let me explain for your narrow-minded mind: the quickest way around a corner, is the shortest and straightest way. to acheive this you need to go the widest possible way through a corner. because the curb lacks as much grip as the tarmac, you can use this to your advantage. coming into a corner, you brake on the curb and pull yourself over onto it, as you turn in, you get some slide because of the curb, THIS IS GOOD, because this means you have had to put less steering input into getting to the apex: this means you can carry slightly more speed to the apex. you then run up against the curb on the exit to ensure you get the quickest possible exit. its the quickest possible way because any steering input will slow you down. you cant argue that, because its common known physics.
as a driver, to acheive the quickest way around a track, you want to maximise the track space given to you, this means using curbs. and if you dont agree, then you really dont understand racing at all and i would advise you to stay well away from real life racing and keep to the "simulator world".

Firstly, stop with this childish one-upping because it's just pathetic.

I do not need you to explain to me how to drive around a track in LFS. I have a 1:13.41 on Blackwood and that is NOT drifting into the corners, NOT braking on the curbs and NOT jumping over the chicanes like the suspension is made out of diamond.

Fact is, in real life you do NOT do any of those things and you can't argue otherwise because so far I have shown you the best of the best doing their stuff in the real world and none of them doing the aforementioned things.

LFS is not real life, and just because you have found a way of bending the physics of the game to get a fast lap time does not mean you would be that good in real life. Deal with it.

Quote from JPeace :

your making out i know nothing. which is not true. i cba to argue with you, because you are so narrow-minded you cant possibly think outside the box. won't be looking at this thread again. and im leaving this argument, have fun!

Just because we have a disagreement it means I am narrow minded? I am very open minded if you must know, I understand your argument and I strongly disagree. That does not make me narrow minded in the slightest.

Quote from JPeace :

think is, on lfs there are curbs on the entrance of corners because they also run a reverse type of the track, this doesn't happen in real life, because they dont run it backwards. but having said that, any curbs that are there on the entrance we use.

Just watch the video you posted, this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35m4avY3O0.

At 1:14, there are curbs on the entrance, and if you watch it closely you see his not braking over it.

Apexing over curbs is totally different issue. It doesn't matter that much what's under your tires, if the tires are barely touching the ground.

Exiting and accelerating over curbs is yet different, the amount of force is much smaller than in initial braking, so not that much grip is needed. And you can even lift off a bit on exit over curbs and still maintain higher exit speed.

Quote from JPeace :

let me explain for your narrow-minded mind: the quickest way around a corner, is the shortest and straightest way.

That claim sounds very narrow-minded to me. Why don't you brake on grass then? Just do it 100meters earlier, hell, it's the shortest and straightest way so it has to be quickest, right?

The quickest way around a track, is the way where distance / avg.speed is smallest. You are saying is that only distance matter, well here's the big news, avg.speed is just as important and the result of both is what matter. When the curbs are more slippery, it means you have to brake earlier. It maybe worth it, or maybe not. Depends heavily on the particular curb and corner. If you barely have to brake to the corner, then it's probably worth it. If it's tight hairpin after a full speed straight, then i wouldn't do the initial braking on curbs.

I have never seen race driver to intentionally brake over curbs. But maybe there are corners where it's fastest way, dunno. But not in LFS way, that's for sure.