I gotta agree with this even if it does take you away from our server. Generally if you join a server with 10 or less drivers it is a much friendlier and cleaner environment to race in. You'll also get more chance to talk to people, get set ups, advice etc.
I gotta agree with this even if it does take you away from our server. Generally if you join a server with 10 or less drivers it is a much friendlier and cleaner environment to race in. You'll also get more chance to talk to people, get set ups, advice etc.
i agree completely about the faster arrogant drivers who think the racing line is simply "theirs"
i was trying to find a definition of "sufficient overlap", as I thought I had read it in the LFS rules.. I remember it something like:
"The front wheels of the overtaking car are at least at the level of the rear wheels of the overtaken car"
..but I can't find it at the moment.
can we please get this clear as well?
i was trying to find a definition of "sufficient overlap", as I thought I had read it in the LFS rules.. I remember it something like:
"The front wheels of the overtaking car are at least at the level of the rear wheels of the overtaken car"
..but I can't find it at the moment.
can we please get this clear as well?
BTW, right form the rules:
Lapping
L-1: It is a fundamental rule of motorsport and sim racing that when a driver receives a blue flag, this is to let him know that a faster car is about to lap him.
L-2: The leading driver that is lapping the slower car must treat the situation as though he's overtaking a normal competitor - and not assume the lapped driver should leap out of the way at all costs.
L-3: The driver that is being lapped should let the lead driver past and/or not resist to be overtaken if the lead driver has sufficient overlap. Only move out of the way for the lead driver when you believe it is safe to do so. For example, not on the apex of a corner.
which is pretty clear to me.
the only grey area (and thus a moment for the implementation of common sense and "morality", so to say) is the part: "Only move out of the way for the lead driver when you believe it is safe to do so."
Lapping
L-1: It is a fundamental rule of motorsport and sim racing that when a driver receives a blue flag, this is to let him know that a faster car is about to lap him.
L-2: The leading driver that is lapping the slower car must treat the situation as though he's overtaking a normal competitor - and not assume the lapped driver should leap out of the way at all costs.
L-3: The driver that is being lapped should let the lead driver past and/or not resist to be overtaken if the lead driver has sufficient overlap. Only move out of the way for the lead driver when you believe it is safe to do so. For example, not on the apex of a corner.
which is pretty clear to me.
the only grey area (and thus a moment for the implementation of common sense and "morality", so to say) is the part: "Only move out of the way for the lead driver when you believe it is safe to do so."
Your approach is right. Its always preferable to wait until there is a safe point to let the other guy through.
If you don't mind me saying though, you mentioned that you take the racing line when entering a corner when another faster driver is behind you. I'm not justifying him ramming you but about the dive bit. Whenever I'm in a position like that and I can see the other driver in my mirrors, I make sure to take a wide line, leaving the inside open. Although, I know you mentioned that you already started turning but what I'm saying is instead of thinking to yourself to take the proper line, it would be better to just take a wider line to eliminate the possibility of a misunderstanding between you and the other driver and if he doesn't pass you at that corner, by the time you're at the exit he would have carried greater speed than you round the corner and can overtake you easily.
Something that I must say and I know many may view it as being elitist is speed. Its all well and good if the difference between the slower and faster drivers is between 1.5-2.0 seconds a lap but I think anything more than that can make it quite hazardous so I'm not trying to be one of those guys "go practice offline you f noob!" but I would considerate it important to do it if the difference in speed is big. Alternatively, there are beginner/amateur leagues where you can race alongside drivers with similair experience and speed.
One thing that I think many LFS drivers need to sort out are their attitudes. I feel that the general caliber of drivers has dramatically dropped so there seems to be loss of respect and civility. This is one of the main reasons why I rarely race online and just stick to leagues because if you have a tough admin running it, none of this crap would happen and if it did, it would be met with penalisation.
If you don't mind me saying though, you mentioned that you take the racing line when entering a corner when another faster driver is behind you. I'm not justifying him ramming you but about the dive bit. Whenever I'm in a position like that and I can see the other driver in my mirrors, I make sure to take a wide line, leaving the inside open. Although, I know you mentioned that you already started turning but what I'm saying is instead of thinking to yourself to take the proper line, it would be better to just take a wider line to eliminate the possibility of a misunderstanding between you and the other driver and if he doesn't pass you at that corner, by the time you're at the exit he would have carried greater speed than you round the corner and can overtake you easily.
Something that I must say and I know many may view it as being elitist is speed. Its all well and good if the difference between the slower and faster drivers is between 1.5-2.0 seconds a lap but I think anything more than that can make it quite hazardous so I'm not trying to be one of those guys "go practice offline you f noob!" but I would considerate it important to do it if the difference in speed is big. Alternatively, there are beginner/amateur leagues where you can race alongside drivers with similair experience and speed.
One thing that I think many LFS drivers need to sort out are their attitudes. I feel that the general caliber of drivers has dramatically dropped so there seems to be loss of respect and civility. This is one of the main reasons why I rarely race online and just stick to leagues because if you have a tough admin running it, none of this crap would happen and if it did, it would be met with penalisation.
Basically i agree with you, the same problem exists in multi-class (different car classes mixed in race) servers even if all the drivers are fast.
I think a 'semi-divebombing' against blue flagger is totally ok..? I mean the situation when you are right at his bottom, but without overlap.. As long as you really are fast enough, and can make the corner tight enough to leave room for him as well. Choose inner line early enough way before braking point to show him you are going for it. In a slower car in that situation i would brake a bit earlier and let faster car pass before turning in. Don't fight it, not even a one bit.
If you are joining mid-race, and are slower than others, then you should be very very careful. Watch the map, and if you think there is a change he will catch you before the next corner/chicane exits, just slow down dramatically (or even stop) and let the pack pass you before the corner. Just make sure you do it on right side the track, opposite side to driving line.
The stuff u mentioned, when someones tries to drive thru you in the middle of the corner, that's BS. The faster driver in that case is very stupid, like he doesn't want to pass you at all, just wants to show you you are in his way. Stupid.. If you encounter slower car in the middle of the corner, you have to go around, not thru.. You should however take it easy and leave him room to go around, if it's possible. Especially when you are not fighting for position yourself, just take it easy and leave the room inside, if possible.
You should go to some well administrated server, (IHR) Ironhorse Racing (just sort the server list by driver count and it's the first one
) is very popular ATM, and administration seems good to me. Earlier the same sheep-kickban-voting problem was there, but it seems it's gone now since kickban voting is not allowed when there is admin online. And there is always admin online.
And if you are much slower, like several secs per lap, it's not that bad thing to let the way faster driver pass without defensive moves even without blue-flag. After i learned to do that, and tried to follow them instead of blocking them, my laptimes started to improve quite fast. You know, fighting for positions is fun but if it's obvious you are very much slower then it just might be much more entertaining and useful to try to follow instead of trying to desperately block.
Have fun..
I think a 'semi-divebombing' against blue flagger is totally ok..? I mean the situation when you are right at his bottom, but without overlap.. As long as you really are fast enough, and can make the corner tight enough to leave room for him as well. Choose inner line early enough way before braking point to show him you are going for it. In a slower car in that situation i would brake a bit earlier and let faster car pass before turning in. Don't fight it, not even a one bit.
If you are joining mid-race, and are slower than others, then you should be very very careful. Watch the map, and if you think there is a change he will catch you before the next corner/chicane exits, just slow down dramatically (or even stop) and let the pack pass you before the corner. Just make sure you do it on right side the track, opposite side to driving line.
The stuff u mentioned, when someones tries to drive thru you in the middle of the corner, that's BS. The faster driver in that case is very stupid, like he doesn't want to pass you at all, just wants to show you you are in his way. Stupid.. If you encounter slower car in the middle of the corner, you have to go around, not thru..
You should however take it easy and leave him room to go around, if it's possible. Especially when you are not fighting for position yourself, just take it easy and leave the room inside, if possible.You should go to some well administrated server, (IHR) Ironhorse Racing (just sort the server list by driver count and it's the first one
) is very popular ATM, and administration seems good to me. Earlier the same sheep-kickban-voting problem was there, but it seems it's gone now since kickban voting is not allowed when there is admin online. And there is always admin online. And if you are much slower, like several secs per lap, it's not that bad thing to let the way faster driver pass without defensive moves even without blue-flag. After i learned to do that, and tried to follow them instead of blocking them, my laptimes started to improve quite fast.
You know, fighting for positions is fun but if it's obvious you are very much slower then it just might be much more entertaining and useful to try to follow instead of trying to desperately block.Have fun..
Totally agree with that last paragraph. You can learn much more following a faster driver than you can learn by trying to defend against them. It's also fustrating as hell when a slower car aggresively defends and you end up having to hit the brakes hard to not hit them.
I had this the other night. Now I don't claim to be fast and this particular race (SO Long) I was about 2 seconds off the pace of the lead cars and the guy aggresively blocking me was 2 seconds off my pace (taken from fastest lap shown at end of race). It took me about a lap and a half to get passed him because he kept pulling silly moves at corners where I could pass meaning I had to slam on the brakes so we didn't crash. Effectively ruined my race because by the time I got past it was too late to catch up with people at my own pace.
If someone is obviously faster than me I'll stay slightly wider on a corner and let them slip past.
I totally agree and sympathize with you!
I only have a few months under my belt and I know the feeling. Sadly, a very high percentage of drivers are merely "videogamers" and have no sense of what real racedriving is about!
I personally have done a couple of amateur races and attended quite a few Track Days. I know (and sure you know too) what its like to be stuck behind a slower driver for quite a few laps because its never been safe enough to overtake them!
As you must know, most time in real racing, patience is virtue! Just hang in there, be patient and you'll soon have the best of them!
And as my experience in LFS so far, and as a recommendation... Join a league or participate in a championship. These normally have proper rulebooks, with race steward checking replays and penalizing drivers wrongdoings and abuses! And the feeling of racing these championships are the closest thing to real racing (the testing, qualifying, strategies, and even the pre-race jitters knowing that if you mess it up, thats it! No points!) is only surpassed by the real thng! I actually received my License by wining one of these championships. As a "noob" I was one of the slowest, but with patience, and clean racing, I won the championship without winning once, but by gaining points consistently in every race! Unlike the faster drivers who won a couple but also had DNF's mainly for rear-ending slower drivers plus being penalized for pushing someone off or by abusing them! So, in the end, I got the best of them!
Sometimes a server with a small grid of close clean racing is better, and more enjoyable than a server with a large grid of "videogamers"!
Cheers,
I only have a few months under my belt and I know the feeling. Sadly, a very high percentage of drivers are merely "videogamers" and have no sense of what real racedriving is about!
I personally have done a couple of amateur races and attended quite a few Track Days. I know (and sure you know too) what its like to be stuck behind a slower driver for quite a few laps because its never been safe enough to overtake them!
As you must know, most time in real racing, patience is virtue! Just hang in there, be patient and you'll soon have the best of them!
And as my experience in LFS so far, and as a recommendation... Join a league or participate in a championship. These normally have proper rulebooks, with race steward checking replays and penalizing drivers wrongdoings and abuses! And the feeling of racing these championships are the closest thing to real racing (the testing, qualifying, strategies, and even the pre-race jitters knowing that if you mess it up, thats it! No points!) is only surpassed by the real thng! I actually received my License by wining one of these championships. As a "noob" I was one of the slowest, but with patience, and clean racing, I won the championship without winning once, but by gaining points consistently in every race! Unlike the faster drivers who won a couple but also had DNF's mainly for rear-ending slower drivers plus being penalized for pushing someone off or by abusing them! So, in the end, I got the best of them!
Sometimes a server with a small grid of close clean racing is better, and more enjoyable than a server with a large grid of "videogamers"!
Cheers,
Pleased to see we can agree on that point.
So I will advertise my poll and idea of new Meeting room, that as I think will slice racers in clusters BUT hopefully will get also those from slower clusters online
This is the fun part of racing - clean overtaking of the slower ones
Apart from those silly moves of course 
If you are a few laps behind, press 4 to see the racing line, just stay of this line when you are getting blue flags.
That is not the best thing to do always. Example, you are being lapped and the leaders are coming up on you, the #1 gets past because it was on a straight but the #2 comes to you just before the corner. If you stay on the racing line, it is race over for him, but if you show a little thought, you could simple move off the racing line.
The main issue is that we are talking about sprint races here, and normal blue flag rules are not the same IMHO. With races of 10 minutes, 1 blueflagger getting in the way can completely ruin a race, when all it takes is a little consideration for the position of the guy coming up on you. Of course, there are plenty of fast drivers who can't drive for toffee, but in the same way, there are plenty of slower people who are just as bad...
thats what i said. i dind't say stay ON this line . but OFF this line.
Sorry for any incorrect spelling
ermm... but trying hard to stay off the line you will make silly moves, ie. when going from lefthander to right corner you have to cross racing line 
I would rather propose to stay off the apexes Not saying that to argue but I dont claim racing line to be all mine when I see backmarker.
I would rather propose to stay off the apexes Not saying that to argue but I dont claim racing line to be all mine when I see backmarker.Im drivin lfs since 2004 , so i know where to go when getting blue flags.
(if i ever get them)
But for someone just starting with lfs, its a nice way to know where to go.
(if i ever get them
)But for someone just starting with lfs, its a nice way to know where to go.
I wouldnt say that seeing your PBs
But it would be fun to race with you
Jason makes a good point here. It is quite a difference in the "fun" factor when racing public 5 lappers compared with long length league racing. With how quick the races are on the public servers, a single backmarker can ruin the entire race for someone who is racing up front. In fact, he will ruin it for the frontrunner because all it takes is a single corner to be held up in and he is way behind with the race finishing up pretty quickly.
That's only a point I want to, well, point out. It still doesn't mean that a backmarker should jump completely out of the way or be punted from the track, if he had started the race. On the other hand, with these public races, the question arises as to how one gets to the point of being blue flagged by the lead pack. Really the only way to become a lap down on a public server would be to have wrecked/spun out, to have mid-joined, or be so horribly slow that he really shouldn't be online racing. In this case, then the race really is over for said backmarker (or never started to begin with) and there isn't much point in not getting out of the way.
Also, I do see the "2 seconds off" mentioned quite a lot. If someone is 2 seconds off pace from another racer, that person is not going to go a lap down in a public racing server. Without calculating, I would say someone would have to be at least 15 to 20 seconds or more slower to go a lap down in 5 laps (depending on car/track combo of course.)
I agree in general, but that point isn't entirely valid when you've got XFRs sharing the track with XFGs
And when you've got both faster and slower cars battling for positions when the leaders catch the slower class, it's quite tricky to have a clean and fair outcome...And then there's the slow-driver-in-front scenario that menantoll mentioned.
I've also seen a lot of dreadful blocking in the last few weeks, whereby someone slower by a good 2 seconds a lap becomes a roadblock for multiple laps and is only passable when they make a serious error. I've even been punted off the track twice today by people who decided to cut right in front of me to block, just as I was starting to overlap.
In reply to the OP: I sympathise - you're probably in the right. Don't give up on finding servers with sane drivers
[PS: to really see people getting lapped a lot, try the IHR Rally server: LX4 vs. UF1 at FE6
]Completely agree with mrodgers here and partly with Neil..
mrodgers point.... Completely correct, if anyone is 20 seconds a lap slower than everyone else, and the leaders are coming up on them, then yes, gtfo of the way please. If it is a different class, then of course the rules change, but again, the chances of you battling for a position is tiny, and the leaders are the leaders. There is such a small chance that the leaders of the XFG class are going to be lapped by the XFR class in a short race that it shouldn't be an issue...
Neils' point... If someone is on the lead lap with you and is 2 seconds a lap slower than your best ever time, tough... It is up to you to pass him, that is called racing You have 0 rights, and he should do everything in his power to block the racing line. This doesn't mean swerving over the road and making more than two distinct moves, but it is completely what racing is all about.. This is where skill and experience comes in, rather than hotlapping ability. You HAVE to out-think your opponent, not just out speed them
mrodgers point.... Completely correct, if anyone is 20 seconds a lap slower than everyone else, and the leaders are coming up on them, then yes, gtfo of the way please. If it is a different class, then of course the rules change, but again, the chances of you battling for a position is tiny, and the leaders are the leaders. There is such a small chance that the leaders of the XFG class are going to be lapped by the XFR class in a short race that it shouldn't be an issue...
Neils' point... If someone is on the lead lap with you and is 2 seconds a lap slower than your best ever time, tough... It is up to you to pass him, that is called racing
You have 0 rights, and he should do everything in his power to block the racing line. This doesn't mean swerving over the road and making more than two distinct moves, but it is completely what racing is all about.. This is where skill and experience comes in, rather than hotlapping ability. You HAVE to out-think your opponent, not just out speed them For the OP: LFS also does suffer what I will call hot lap racers.
These are people that can lay down great hotlap time but fail to understand race rules or understand that the person that has a place on them might not be as fast.
They end rear ending slower drivers that start higher in the grid etc because they just don't judge the situation or they believe they have the right to dive through at the wrong times when they don't have position to make a move. Their view is I am faster so go out my way.
These people normally only join servers without wind enabled because that might effect their "hot lapping"
The situation is compounded as other have pointed out because most LFS races are sprint races. LFS should add a yellow %/ratio to the stats that records the number of races and number of yellows so servers can filter bad racers (Fast and slow)
These are people that can lay down great hotlap time but fail to understand race rules or understand that the person that has a place on them might not be as fast.
They end rear ending slower drivers that start higher in the grid etc because they just don't judge the situation or they believe they have the right to dive through at the wrong times when they don't have position to make a move. Their view is I am faster so go out my way.
These people normally only join servers without wind enabled because that might effect their "hot lapping"
The situation is compounded as other have pointed out because most LFS races are sprint races. LFS should add a yellow %/ratio to the stats that records the number of races and number of yellows so servers can filter bad racers (Fast and slow)
I think hotlappers will be included as going on the limit is going to thelimit of mistake.
BTW. Minimap markers could have option to show racers ahead/behind in race (as it is now) or different car classes for multiclass races
Totally agree - that's racing and it's great fun. But it was exactly the "swerving over the road and making more than two distinct moves" that I was talking about. Drivers who realise at the last second that their mistake at the last corner cost them enough speed that I'm now coming past and so they swerve in front - frequently after some overlap has already been established. That's not racing
Just realised that some of this has happened in a multiclass server as mentioned by another reply.
This has meant that the difference in speed between me in the slow GTI and the leaders is massive. I have sometimes had no blue flag at all and been hit by a much faster car and been ripped into for being slow and not getting out of the way.
I intend to check out some of the servers mentioned above. I am sure I find some of you guys online and have some good races.
Thanks for helping me with all the above advice.
See you online.
This has meant that the difference in speed between me in the slow GTI and the leaders is massive. I have sometimes had no blue flag at all and been hit by a much faster car and been ripped into for being slow and not getting out of the way.
I intend to check out some of the servers mentioned above. I am sure I find some of you guys online and have some good races.
Thanks for helping me with all the above advice.
See you online.
Here we go blame the fast guys
here is a copy/paste of the top hotlappers.
Main Hotlap Rank: RANK INFO
Pos Racer Handicap Done
1 arrechee -0:49.645 18 C
2 Bawbag -0:49.055 18 C
3 Rocabiliz -0:48.375 18 C
4 DaveWS -0:47.485 18 C
5 Jonesy_ -0:43.465 18 C
6 Karolis[Lt] -0:40.965 18 C
7 M4ver1ck -0:36.575 18 C
8 Gargus -0:35.345 18 C
9 zeromussov -0:32.335 18 C
10 indie -0:27.875 18
they must all suck bad
or how about this list...
WR holders chart:
arrowkart4 106
arrechee 76
Karolis[Lt] 50
NickC 48
Daniel1992 36
_Mateusz_ 36
MarcG 35
510N3D 34
hugoluis 21
[DUcK] 19
Fox 2 18
Zanini 18
vincper 18
Bawbag 16
pecholobo 16
DaveWS 15
AutoPilot 13
Garfild12 12
Please tell me which ones cannot race
, and if any racer on the track knows the lines best its usually not the one getting blueflagged ok.Ive seen this point come up a lot of times regarding hotlappers and racing skills. Couldnt be further then the truth imo. The "hotlapper" is more likely to be on the limit and the inexeperienced blueflagged racer will more then likely be unable to anticipate manouvers made by the incoming pack. I`ve raced enough hotlappers to know that this "hot lap racers". condition is not the case as you present it to be.
The "hot lap racer" will be more likely intrested in tweaking and testing set, while racing. And in my opinion server that have midrace enable do so, so that other racers can join in the fun. (this is why they are racing on servers with no wind)
Getting blueflagged when you have joined mid race and trying to hold a racing line in sprint racing is very unsportman like.
Just thought id straighten that point out a little.
Anyways all thats needed is common sense and decency regardless of speed, skill, age, colour, sex, height, weight, looks, financial status, religous beliefs and vices. Oh and forum post count, amount of WR held, stats and hardware owned
*edit*
If you want an example of how the idiots getting blueflagged ruin sprint racing just got to ironhorseracing.*
If you want decent racing with racers, id recconmend Deadmenracing or R2R servers.
Both too complex, there is one so simple guideline it cannot be mistaken: Choose one side of the track, show it and stay there - if the lapping driver has even one iota of race craft in him he will find a way to get by...
If you reread his post, he nowhere accuses the WR-ranks of that behaviour... And there definitely are people out there who fall apart when they are forced to take any other than the(ir) ideal line... I once saw someone taking half the field out and blaming his opponent when clearly he failed to take into account that he had to brake earlier/harder being on the inside and simply didn't make the corner...
Maybe that term is a bit misleading, but then we all have to find a better one, don't we?I'm kindof tired of people whining about this. The points made above are not really valid at all.
The whole problem here is that the blue flag warning comes out LONG BEFORE THE FASTER DRIVER IS ON YOUR REAR!!!!!! The problem is lapped drivers see the blue flag, then ignore it until the faster car is now right on their rear bumper. Then, when they ARE on their rear bumper, they are in the middle of a chicane or a turn or something, then complain about not having a safe place to pull over.
B.S. A simple rule, when you see the blue flag, simply look on the map and if you see a turn or a chicane coming up YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SLOW and let the faster car go BEFORE the turn or chicane.
I know sometimes you are racing for position too (even though at least one lap down), but the bottom line is that the rule does state "YOU MUST NOT SLOW THE LAPPING CAR DOWN!!!!"
That's why it's frustrating for faster drivers.
The whole problem here is that the blue flag warning comes out LONG BEFORE THE FASTER DRIVER IS ON YOUR REAR!!!!!! The problem is lapped drivers see the blue flag, then ignore it until the faster car is now right on their rear bumper. Then, when they ARE on their rear bumper, they are in the middle of a chicane or a turn or something, then complain about not having a safe place to pull over.
B.S. A simple rule, when you see the blue flag, simply look on the map and if you see a turn or a chicane coming up YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SLOW and let the faster car go BEFORE the turn or chicane.
I know sometimes you are racing for position too (even though at least one lap down), but the bottom line is that the rule does state "YOU MUST NOT SLOW THE LAPPING CAR DOWN!!!!"
That's why it's frustrating for faster drivers.
Faster drivers are not always in the right..."noob" has had enough!!!
(93 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG