oops i forgot to add, when there is a slow guy braking early on a real track it usually does end up in a crash. so its not that they dont want to crash really, they are nutters and it doesnt matter to them.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

oops i forgot to add, when there is a slow guy braking early on a real track it usually does end up in a crash. so its not that they dont want to crash really, they are nutters and it doesnt matter to them.

have you ever thought that not all of us know the braking point for t1 on every track?

yeah... sometimes a guy will ride my ass and i'll brake a bit early (say at 120m mark instead of 100m) to give myself a little window to recover when he does hit me.

i usually only do that if they bump me the turn before and if its on a dangerous corner.

Ayrton, you seem to feel that early braking guys are more of a problem than late braking guys when it comes to T1 madness. Is that a fair summary?

Maybe you are right but I have to say I get a lot more mad at the (excessively) late braking guys after one of them has taken me out. Also, as someone else has pointed out above, it's pretty clear that not everyone knows where they should be braking for T1 on cold tyres on lap 1. (Or for any turn on any other lap for that matter.) Look at the amount of locking up we see in a typical rush for the T1 apex. LFS physics punish lockups pretty severely, and so if we all knew what we were doing there'd be very little of it.

So I think your perfect world in which we all banzai into T1 and miraculously come out unscathed on the other side is unlikely to happen any time soon. In the meantime I think the questions are (as others have said above) what can we do to give maximum information to the guy behind us and to best anticipate what the guy in front is likely to do, whether he's new or experienced.

i suppose the answer to T1 problems is to have mandatory qualifying, that way the fast boys are at the front!
no maybe not!!

Quote from jtr99 :

Ayrton, you seem to feel that early braking guys are more of a problem than late braking guys when it comes to T1 madness. Is that a fair summary?

They're a different problem.

The fact is the cars 2 or 3 rows back have even less chance to react and even less room to escape in when someone at the front brakes far too early. It's an accordian effect.

@John Penn: The 2 second rule doesn't apply here. We're racing not motorway cruising.

I think Ayrton is just saying, and for the most part I agree, that racers who are perhaps thinking they are being extra careful are probably just causing a different kind of hazard.

@Lino: Why is that a valid excuse for someone braking too soon, and not for someone who brakes too late? If you brake wayyy too soon, you ARE causing an accident just as much as the guy that brakes wayyy too late. Just as with the guy that brakes too late: maybe people will be able to avoid you, maybe they won't.


I should add that OF COURSE intentional contact is wrong, and I do not condone it. All I'm saying is that when driver x brakes way too early, and the 20 cars behind all have to react to that, whatever happens next is driver x's fault, and if the worst that happens is that the car immediately behind him is the only who makes contact with him, then that's a good result.

Quote :

I think Ayrton is just saying, and for the most part I agree, that racers who are perhaps thinking they are being extra careful are probably just causing a different kind of hazard.

The problem with early brakers is totaly messed up in LFS because barely anybody who plays knows how to start a motor race.

You dont brake at the normal point and you dont brake early, BOTH parties are wrong, because this is not what you do at the start of a race.

To safely get through turn one you come off the throttle first, and then start braking. Most LFS racers go onto the brakes as if they are taking the corner normally but with a bit of extra company.

If everyone applied a bit more common sense, or at least tried to do what real world drivers in the middle and back of the pack do, then there would be a lot less T1 accidents.

Coming off the throttle and braking gently does not meen you automatically loose places, because the primary person you are racing is the person to your side not the car infront or behind - and being gentler on the pedals meens you can tuck right up behind the car infront in a safe manner - provided they are being sensible with their pedals that is.

The whole early braking debate is pretty stupid in my opinion, because I see no merit in either argument.

Maybe I am a little ratty because I was taken out twice intentionally at the start yesterday and once by accident in the 4 full races I did...

Yah intentionally, one because I politely asked somebody not to ask for (infact he was spamming for) setup requests until after the race so he just aimed for me and floored it next race. And then I got taken out by a guy who just blatantly sideswipped me by moving off line on the strait after T1.

I'm still a bit narked about those two actually...

...then there was the pileup.

Quote from Gabkicks :

when i say attack i mean attempt to pass or force an accelleration battle at corner exit.

I know what you mean!

I'm always very easy at T1, unless I'm in first position, in which case I brake light to avoid any rear-end nastyness. I prefer to start near the back of the grid, so I can coast through the chaos, and let a speed, consistency and general uberness lead me to the win.

Quote from Bob Smith :

... and let a speed, consistency and general uberness lead me to the win.

You've got that wrong. The winner is not the one with the highest number in the finishing-order but the one with the "1" before his name.



Vain

I usually cause dangerous situations, because I brake so early. I dont know, maybe its the setup or the fact that I use manual clutch or something, but I always get assrammed.

Quote :

@John Penn: The 2 second rule doesn't apply here. We're racing not motorway cruising.

Lol .problem is in many cases were doing neither.
Have been enjoying online racing since GPL in 1998, these cars are a LOT harder to control and yes we got t1 smashes , but in LFS its getting worse not better ,just thinking about AS club at t1 , ohh boy an exercise in futility.

I think it relates to driver's in real life who when the road gets fogged up,
there answer is to go faster to get out of it quicker, and you know what happens next.

I still believe that hitting a car infront of you is ALWAYS your fault unless the driver in front brakes early to cause mischief.

BTW you should try driving on the M8 in rush hour,2 second rule LOL

John

Quote from sinbad :

@Lino: Why is that a valid excuse for someone braking too soon, and not for someone who brakes too late? If you brake wayyy too soon, you ARE causing an accident just as much as the guy that brakes wayyy too late. Just as with the guy that brakes too late: maybe people will be able to avoid you, maybe they won't.

Sorry, I was talking about what ayrton senna 87 was saying about anybody who brakes early is the cause of an accident, and not about the whole thread. I agree with you, goes both ways.

Something needs to be done but there is not much we can do about it.

I usually start braking a bit early (light on the brakes at first and press harder as need be) and try to stay as far to the outside as possible. Shure I loose places, but I havent started an accident in a long time (that I know of).

Quote from Bob Smith :

I prefer to start near the back of the grid, so I can coast through the chaos, and let a speed, consistency and general uberness lead me to the win.

You go, girl.