Discuss. . .

I'm bring this up because the US has decided to make ESP mandatory by 2012.

My opinion: Seems like a great idea for HCoG vehicles, but it seems beyond pointless in smaller FWD cars, especially low powered economy cars, and I feel like it is probably going to increase fairly drastically the number of single vehicle crashes ("I'll be fine, I've got ESP"). That said, I've also heard that is a way to require ABS, but it seems that it would be more logical just to make that a mandate.

People should just learn car control and to drive according to the conditions/limits.

Quote from 5haz :

People should just learn car control and to drive according to the conditions/limits.

This is America. Pretty sure that's impossible.

A mandatory few hous on a skidpan as part of learner driving can't do much harm surely?

Plus its great fun.

Actually, I was just thinking, my CRV doesnt have ESP or ABS, but somehow It's made it to 100k miles.

what's HSoG?

Quote from speed1 :

Actually, I was just thinking, my CRV doesnt have ESP or ABS, but somehow It's made it to 100k miles.

That would be an interesting statistic. Compare the total mileage on average of cars with/without ESP, ABS, AWD, etc, and see if there is any noticeable trend.

Quote from Osco :

what's HSoG?

Sorry, that was my bad lol. It should have been HCoG. High Center of Gravity.

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

That would be an interesting statistic. Compare the total mileage on average of cars with/without ESP, ABS, AWD, etc, and see if there is any noticeable trend.

I really think you would see a trend because people think that electronics will save them, so they dont need to slow down in bad conditions. I think that is a phenomena that is really shown by all the trucks and suvs you see driving way to fast/in a ditch when its snowing. 4wd doesnt do you much good with stopping.

My view on ESP is it will save the chav who flies into a bend too fast the first time, but because he got away with it, he'll enter it even faster next time and crash even harder when the ESP can't save him.

Quote from speed1 :

Discuss. . .

I'm bring this up because the US has decided to make ESP mandatory by 2012.



My opinion: Seems like a great idea for HCoG vehicles, but it seems beyond pointless in smaller FWD cars, especially low powered economy cars, and I feel like it is probably going to increase fairly drastically the number of single vehicle crashes ("I'll be fine, I've got ESP"). That said, I've also heard that is a way to require ABS, but it seems that it would be more logical just to make that a mandate.

Quote from 5haz :

People should just learn car control and to drive according to the conditions/limits.

Skip to 6mins in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-hHWSQhKuc

If the likes of Tiff Needell doesn't have the car control required, then your average driver doesn't have a hope of controling the car, even with training.

The increase in accidents arguments have been put forward for most other safety features implemented throughout the years, ABS etc and none of them have been proven. Vehicle safety features have only ever led to a decrease in accidents. People will drive like idiots no matter what driver aids their car has. Simple fact is the vast majority of accidents happen to males under 25. The reason is nothing to do with the car and everything to do with testosterone combined with driving ability that doesn't match their egos. That's something that will never change.

If aids like ESP stop the idiots plowing in to bus stop queues and killing by standers then they get the thumbs up from me.

To be fair, ESP or not; great driver or not; good car/tyres or not... the driver should go a bit slower than that in real life!

Also, there is actually very little evidence that the introduction of ABS has decreased accidents, injuries or fatalities. Besides which, with more cars on the road year on year, even 'accidents per 1000' statistics aren't very reliable. If there were 1000 cars in the UK then the chances of them meeting each other would be slim. If there were 100000000000 cars in the UK then the chances of avoiding each other would be slim (yes, I know it's an extreme, but I'm making a point rather than anything scientific).

Personally I have no problems with ESP on normal cars, as 'normal' drivers need it. But adding safety does tend to increase a drivers likelihood of taking risks - even in F1, as safety has improved so driving 'standards' have fallen. Would you nip through a changing red light if you had an 80% of dying as a result? Would you do the same if you had a 0.8% chance of dying? Again, poor example, but increasing 'safety' might be entirely offset by 'increased risks taken as a result'.

Ramble over.

Quote from gezmoor :

Skip to 6mins in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-hHWSQhKuc

If the likes of Tiff Needell doesn't have the car control required, then your average driver doesn't have a hope of controling the car, even with training.

Would you drive at 70mph on ice? No one could be expected to save it in that situation, hence why nobody in their right mind drives at 70mph on ice.

People also need to learn to drive according to the conditions, and within their limits, so that they don't get into a situation similar to that video where even an experiened racing driver is out of their depth. I always see people doing 70mph on the motorway in torrential rain.

Quote from gezmoor :

People will drive like idiots no matter what driver aids their car has.

Exactly, which is why people need to have it hammered into them not to drive like idiots and to know how to get back under control if things get out of shape, without driver aids. Every driver needs to know where the limits are, and to get a good feel of when they are approaching them, so they have the judgement not to go flying into bends at excessive speed and then fall off the road.

If people must drive too fast on the roads, then at the very least they should know how to. Of course driving too fast on the roads will always be dangerous, but at least if drivers were taught proper car control they might be better prepared to avoid many horrible accidents where knowing these things made the difference.

Then you get into another tangent...

If you train drivers in 'advanced' (ha) car control techniques and so forth, will they then drive even faster given the new skills? Perhaps it would actually be safer to not give ANY training whatsoever, and let everyone amble around, terrified of their cars... We will never know, because it'll never happen, but as long as everyone (vast, vast majority) of people are ambling around terrified of doing anything at all wrong, and knowing that everyone else is doing the same, maybe...

The sad fact is that you have to assume everyone is a twat, everyone drives faster then their skill levels should allow them, and that people in cars will hit things (people, trees, trains, rabbits, ditches...). Assuming that cannot be changed, then you have to make the accidents more surviveable (for both the driver/passenger and the thing you hit), with crumple zones, seat belts, airbags, vibrating seats and road line detection, pop-up bonnets and so on. Is there any evidence that it DECREASES accidents? I don't think so. But maybe it slows the rise, or keeps it the same despite more cars and drivers? Will people drive quicker given safer cars - absolutely. No doubt about it- only a fool would suggest that speeds stay the same given much safer vehicles.

Which is better? Unsafe vehicles driven slowly (relatively) with the pretext of everyone else being in unsafe cars at lower speeds OR safer cars at higher speeds with the feeling of invulnerability, knowing that everyone else is safer too (including the pedestrians)?

I agree for the most part what tristancliffe is saying, but where I don't mind car manufactures putting ABS, ESP and other helpful devices, I do despise being forced into that option. My car has no helpful safety devices like ABS, but I know how to apply brakes and release when locked and tap again - including in snowy conditions which I personally think is my favorite time to drive. (Minus the stress and fear that every other idiot on the road is out of control - because that is the way you need to think).

My point here is I do not like ABS. I know it is likely my next car has it, but I don't like that fact; same with being forced into ESP at some point. I doubt that adding safety devices is really helping, and like what was said; some idiot takes said corner at too-high speed, ESP saves them. The idiot now believes faster is okay and takes it at higher speed - where ESP fails and that situation is actually worse than if the car would have went off the road at 100mph vs the 120mph.

I am fine with the option of this in cars, but there will be a day in able 3 to 5 years where I will want a sports car and be able to properly -and legally- play with it, and I don't want all this stupid shit on my toy.

Even my dad's kia rio has ESP. How can cars more expensive than a kia not have it?

This is great IF it's multichannel. ABS which works like "brake help" does in LFS is useless, whereas ABS which can modulate each wheel indepenandtly is much much much better.

ESP sounds good, but the last thing I want is something taking control out of me - if my car gets sideways I need to correct it, the last the thing I want to have to do is fight against a computer which has decided to do the exact opposite of what I want...

Quote from Luke.S :

Even my dad's kia rio has ESP. How can cars more expensive than a kia not have it?

This isn't the fact that expensive vs inexpensive - its the fact that it is being forced into production; which IMO sucks for me, and others who properly handle the car. It is likely good for the normal 'good' driver who only uses these systems in panic moments, but for the average driver it goes back to the risk thing that tristancliffe talked about. More safety = less risk, less risk = more stupidity.

Quote from Jakg :

ESP sounds good, but the last thing I want is something taking control out of me - if my car gets sideways I need to correct it, the last the thing I want to have to do is fight against a computer which has decided to do the exact opposite of what I want...

have you even tried? it works great, in slippery tarmac, for example here in Mexico there are parts of the road that are just too plain and in curvs the car can slide even at 30kph, and it is great when you try 2 cars one with ESP and one with not, and one slides and the other not... it is just amazing, if you want that like; correct it for yourself do it in a track or something, where if you are mistaken no one can get hurt but you.

Quote from Jakg :

ESP sounds good, but the last thing I want is something taking control out of me - if my car gets sideways I need to correct it, the last the thing I want to have to do is fight against a computer which has decided to do the exact opposite of what I want...

You do realise that with ESP you are very unlikely to go sideways in your car anyway It will brake the according wheel to create an opposite momentum to the one the car is having.

Of course any kind of improement is highly theoretical, but once you dig down into some proper statistics (GIDAS for example) and look through all the kinds of accidents it contains you'll see that ESP could be a big help. We are still talking about the average driver who isn't even able to do a proper emergency brake (anker it), so of course ABS won't help you here if you are not able to actually use the system.

And by the argument that it could actually cause more risky driving...
Well, by that we should think about removing any seatbelts from our cars, thats probably why the americans still do their tests without seatbelts too

Ok you know what I mean - I'm all in favour of ABS and ESP being fitted to all cars however you should be able to switch it off - ABS does need a switch (because in snow its useless) and similar for ESP I personally feel if a car was starting to get out of shape, the last thing i'd want is a computer trying to alter the throttle / brakes for me - imagine trying to drive in LFS, and whenever you got near the limits someone cut the throttle / put on the brakes in an attempt to "save" you...

ABS I can deal with simply because instead of using cadance braking you just have to stamp the pedal and hope for the best, knowing ABS will stop you quicker (with a mutl-channel system of course).

Have I tried a car with ESP? I must admit no. ABS? Yes and I was very impressed.

And at the "save it for the track" comment. I'm not saying "turn it off it will slow me down" i'm saying "I dont want to have to fight against a backseat driver when I need control".

Quote from Jakg :

Ok you know what I mean - I'm all in favour of ABS and ESP being fitted to all cars however you should be able to switch it off - ABS does need a switch (because in snow its useless) and similar for ESP I personally feel if a car was starting to get out of shape, the last thing i'd want is a computer trying to alter the throttle / brakes for me - imagine trying to drive in LFS, and whenever you got near the limits someone cut the throttle / put on the brakes in an attempt to "save" you...

ABS I can deal with simply because instead of using cadance braking you just have to stamp the pedal and hope for the best, knowing ABS will stop you quicker (with a mutl-channel system of course).

Have I tried a car with ESP? I must admit no. ABS? Yes and I was very impressed.

And at the "save it for the track" comment. I'm not saying "turn it off it will slow me down" i'm saying "I dont want to have to fight against a backseat driver when I need control".

yes you have. Your Dad's Ceed. All Kias come with ESP as standard iirc.

Quote from Jakg :

Ok you know what I mean - I'm all in favour of ABS and ESP being fitted to all cars however you should be able to switch it off - ABS does need a switch (because in snow its useless) and similar for ESP I personally feel if a car was starting to get out of shape, the last thing i'd want is a computer trying to alter the throttle / brakes for me - imagine trying to drive in LFS, and whenever you got near the limits someone cut the throttle / put on the brakes in an attempt to "save" you...

.

why would you want to go near the limits in the streets?

Ok I have driven a car with ESP, but I certainly never drove it hard enough for it to do anything...

EDIT - Obviously I dont want to go over the limit on the road, but obviously people do otherwise there wouldn't be accidents - no accident involving ESP ever happens under the limit of the car...

Quote from Jakg :

Have I tried a car with ESP? I must admit no. ABS? Yes and I was very impressed.

Well, I'm about to have a go with several BMW driving assit features on friday (night vision, acc, emergency brake assisten etc), so I'll come back to that

Should be fun the 7 series and the 5 GT

edit:

Quote from Jakg :

EDIT - Obviously I dont want to go over the limit on the road, but obviously people do otherwise there wouldn't be accidents - no accident involving ESP ever happens under the limit of the car...

And such kind of system isn't for those people who are clearly stupid enough to do so (in terms of driving over the limit on prupose), but to help those who not judge the situation correctly and need help.