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Toe in or Toe out?
(9 posts, started )
Toe in or Toe out?
Well, taking my little knowledge of LFS setup making to Forza 3 I had a big knockout. Putting a 3 degree Toe in or out made a strong difference, the car didn't go straight and it pulled to the right or left; however in LFS it does not happen.
Is it true that if you do that in a real car it will feel that way? like an uncontrollable zig zag or so.
Why is it in Forza and not in LFS?

PS: I know that parameters for toe in and toe out in LFS are the opposite from RL.
i hope this explains it a bite, even with my crappy paint skills :P

the black stripes are while the car stands and the red ones while driving.

If you now add extrem positive toe on the front like this / \ at an rwd car, it wont go straight, very unstable and like the zig zag you said.
Attached images
toe.JPG
#3 - bbman
Quote from Memph1s :the black stripes are while the car stands and the red ones while driving.

What? Toe doesn't change with speed, unless you have aerodynamic devices acting on the suspension...

Toe in is often used to make a particular end of a car more compliant over bumps and undulations... As the tyres are pointed inwards, they provide a stabilizing force when the tyres regain traction...

You can also use toe to alter the handling of a car (should be the last resort though) as you can make one end deliberatly more or less unstable... In addition, adding toe out to the front is a cheap alternative to ackerman geometry if that isn't available...

But be aware that by angling the tyres inwards/outwards, you will increase friction (thus hurting your top speed) and tyre wear on every straight so you wouldn't want any more toe than absolutely necessary...
Quote from bbman :What? Toe doesn't change with speed, unless you have aerodynamic devices acting on the suspension...

Toe in is often used to make a particular end of a car more compliant over bumps and undulations... As the tyres are pointed inwards, they provide a stabilizing force when the tyres regain traction...

You can also use toe to alter the handling of a car (should be the last resort though) as you can make one end deliberatly more or less unstable... In addition, adding toe out to the front is a cheap alternative to ackerman geometry if that isn't available...

But be aware that by angling the tyres inwards/outwards, you will increase friction (thus hurting your top speed) and tyre wear on every straight so you wouldn't want any more toe than absolutely necessary...

First useful post in "general LFS discussion" this year for me.
Thanks
Quote from chanoman315 :Well, taking my little knowledge of LFS setup making to Forza 3 I had a big knockout. Putting a 3 degree Toe in or out made a strong difference, the car didn't go straight and it pulled to the right or left; however in LFS it does not happen.
Is it true that if you do that in a real car it will feel that way? like an uncontrollable zig zag or so.
Why is it in Forza and not in LFS?

PS: I know that parameters for toe in and toe out in LFS are the opposite from RL.

You can't have more than +/- 0.9 degree toe in or out in LFS. That's more than three times less you could adjust in Forza. Maybe that's why there is a difference between LFS and Forza
#6 - JeffR
In real life and in most racing games, you probably want a bit of toe in at both ends.

During a corner, when at the limits, the optimal slip angle for the inside tires is less than the outside tires, so you need toe in at the front and back.

When not at the limits of cornering, but at the limits of acceleration, toe in at the rear of a rear wheel drive car helps stabilize the car. If the car gets a bit sideways due to slippage, the "outside" tire points more inwards than the inside tire, relative to the direction of travel, and you get a bit of self correction effect to steer the rear end back behind the front end.

Front end stablity is mostly related to caster, although most passenger cars use a small amout of toe in.

For racing games, depending on tire wear model, tire heat model, and the amount of grip decrease once the slip angle of maximum force is reached, how lateral and longitundal forces are dealt with in a particular racing game, using toe out can help stablize a racing game car under heavy braking. This was a common exploit used in Grand Prix Legends. What happens is that the tires are at the limits due to braking, so the critical slip angles are very small, if the front end starts to slide outwards, the "outwards" tire gets a higher slip angle and less grip, and the increased grip on the "inwards" tire tends to steer the car back. On some cars in GPL, such as the Lotus, and with braking bias set to a narrow region 52% to 54%, you could end up with a "reverse steering" effect under heavy braking:

http://rcgldr.net/gpl/gplrs.wmv
Sometimes a bit of toe out can do a lot of good, on the front tires at least. With autox or other tight courses, some front toe out can really make the car more "willing" to turn into a turn. Makes it slightly hairy at high speeds tho. I run a little of toe out on the front of my miata actually.



Quote from JeffR :In real life and in most racing games, you probably want a bit of toe in at both ends.

During a corner, when at the limits, the optimal slip angle for the inside tires is less than the outside tires, so you need toe in at the front and back.

When not at the limits of cornering, but at the limits of acceleration, toe in at the rear of a rear wheel drive car helps stabilize the car. If the car gets a bit sideways due to slippage, the "outside" tire points more inwards than the inside tire, relative to the direction of travel, and you get a bit of self correction effect to steer the rear end back behind the front end.

Front end stablity is mostly related to caster, although most passenger cars use a small amout of toe in.

For racing games, depending on tire wear model, tire heat model, and the amount of grip decrease once the slip angle of maximum force is reached, how lateral and longitundal forces are dealt with in a particular racing game, using toe out can help stablize a racing game car under heavy braking. This was a common exploit used in Grand Prix Legends. What happens is that the tires are at the limits due to braking, so the critical slip angles are very small, if the front end starts to slide outwards, the "outwards" tire gets a higher slip angle and less grip, and the increased grip on the "inwards" tire tends to steer the car back. On some cars in GPL, such as the Lotus, and with braking bias set to a narrow region 52% to 54%, you could end up with a "reverse steering" effect under heavy braking:

http://rcgldr.net/gpl/gplrs.wmv

i got just a tiny bit of toe in on my rl car at front wheels. but i got super lowered suspension,at superhard settings( bilstein pss9) plus strutbrace. i love it
Range difference ~

In Forza you can have 3 degrees toe in/out while in LFS 0.9 is MAX.

Toe in or Toe out?
(9 posts, started )
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